Suggestion: Mann Co. Supply Crate Key at 4 ref

Price Suggestion

~57.22 ref

1319 votes up

372 votes down

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This suggestion was closed Mon, 18 Mar 13 04:38:14 +0000 by SirJjjon.

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Comments

NSERT LARGELY CONTROVERSIAL PRICE SUGGESTION.

This is going to be part whatever proof I can amass, and part words. Please read all of it before you vote.

WHY ARE KEYS RISING?

We are stuck in a very vicious cycle. People were selling keys for 2.66 if anyone remembers that time. All of a sudden, people realised they could make profit off keys. The odd person started selling for 3 refined. He was laughed at for highballing, but that got other keybankers thinking. “Hey, we could make a lot of profit off this!” So then they also started selling for 3 refined. More and more keybankers started selling higher for more profit until the price was pretty firm at 3 refined, and traders grudgingly accepted this price. This just keeps happening again, and again, and again. Currently there are people selling for 4.33, and nobody is buying, but other key sellers see that and they sell by that too, then slowly less and less are selling for 4 refined, and we will be solid at 4.33 again. This will keep happening until keys go down and traders realise keys are no longer reliably going up in price, and hurriedly sell them for the current price.

OUTPOST PROOF

If we go through this page here, http://www.tf2outpost.com/search/87817321/1 there are A LOT of key sales selling at 4.22-4.66 and they have around 50-100 keys sold (according to the notes of the trade.) FOR EXAMPLE - http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9164282 Has sold 103 keys, however this trade is 1 week old and for that amount I can almost guarantee that the price has not always been 4.11/4.22. This is part of the proof that people have been using to rise keys, and it is not reliable at all, for two main reasons.

A. These guys sell keys for more than the current price, of course they’re gonna fake how many they sold in an attempt to get more buyers and more sellers of this price, referring to the vicious cycle I talked about earlier.

B. Keybanker trades are often days, weeks, even months old. The price of the keys (in the notes) will have changed over time, the amount of keys sold in total has not.

AM I BIASED / WHY WOULD I TRY AND LOWER THE PRICES

I have no metal in my inventory, all I have are 5 pure keys so I would (technically) be losing 5 scraps if this was accepted. I think I can live with that. I make this because it is not worth causing a pain to everyone in the economy so a few people can make a reclaimed profit. Besides, 4 refined is a nice number for keys, will allow the 0.5 and 0.75 suggestions / classified listings on backpack to make more sense (as we can’t currently mix currencies).

MY PROOF

Proof is incredibly hard to get with the reasons I have explained above. But without it, all my suggestion would be is a load of hot air, so here you go.

BUYERS

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9333392 Bought 10 for 4 refined

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9310768 Bought 3 for 4 refined

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8287902 Bought at least 5 within 12 hours

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9231338 Buying for 4 refined at least one seller (comments)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9317019 Buying for 4 refined, appears to have bought some

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9340773 Buying for 4 refined

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9271181 Buying for 4 refined, bought at least one

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9316988 Buying for 4 refined

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9342825 > 4 hours, unsold for 4.11

Pretty much unlimited outpost trades buying for 4 refined. (http://www.tf2outpost.com/search/87817192) Let's see if we can find sellers.

There is the occasional trade selling for 4 refined, but hard to find as they're usually closed and snapped up quick.

Because of this I will also be looking at keys unsold for 4.11 (reinforcing a reduce)

Plenty of keys unsold at 4.33 and above. (http://www.tf2outpost.com/search/87817321/1)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9349103 Selling 3 for 4 refined

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8873275 Buying for 4.11, bought none.

COUNTER PROOF – WHY I ADD IT AND WHAT IT MEANS

99.999% of these are people that will pay a little extra for keys that they are so sure will rise in price, a little loss for a “great” investment. Plus there are the ones that want the keys quick, others are just plain stupid. But hearing from the other side is a must on any backpack suggestion, I think so here it is.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/6962413 One of the people who attracts people to sell keys for higher, raising the price. Claims to have sold many keys at prices higher than backpack but has no proof. Not saying he hasn’t, but not saying it’s 100% reliable that he has and he’s not just saying that to try raise prices. Something to watch. Also notice how the user “Finn The Human” bought quite a few keys from him and is now selling his keys for 4.33? Yeah.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9216391 Buying at 4.11

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9212023 Buying for 4.11

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9349544 Sold for 4.11 in 3 minutes

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9350261 Sold for 4.11

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9332664 Sold two for 4.22 (investors or stupid)

Anyways sorry for the pitiful amount of proof, the main proof I can provide is the amount of keys unsold at >4.11 which you can find here -

http://www.tf2outpost.com/search/87817321/1

http://www.tf2outpost.com/search/87817192

Take my suggestion into consideration, and argue in the comments. There are plenty of investors that will downvote this for fear of loss of their sacred virtual profit, and plenty of traders who will upvote for their opinion that keys rising is stupid (which they may be right.) Thank you for reading all of this, and good day.

http://tf2finance.com/keys/

4.08 says Hi!

While you're simply throwing the link to the site out, would you like to explain why earbuds are listed as 33 USD there, but 38.32 on backpack.tf ? Because it seems like you're saying the number on tf2finance should be the be all end all.

http://puu.sh/2j3Ni

February 1, 2013.

Has not been tracked since.

Alrighty. But I still think we should be using the trades we find for evidence, rather than just going along with what they've found.

eh,

tf2finance track every trade that deal with keys and metal so I am pretty sure it track more keys than outpost.

Still, it wouldn't be right to use, say, tf2 spreadsheet's prices to back up your own suggestions. Proof usually seems to be about showing trades happening that everyone can see, and not just having to trust the numbers reported from another site.

um, these numbers aren't reported from another site.

these are right from steam data(provided by steam) so basically just pure information with no interference or editing.

I like how entirely hypocritical Long can be when referencing the Holy Finance. If it suits his needs, he rounds up. If it doesn't suit his needs, he rounds down.

"A suggestion for 4 ref? Well Finance says 4.02 so 4.11 must still work."

"A suggestion for 4.22 ref? Well Finance says 4.21, so 4.11 must still work."

I think Long218 just doesn't want his hundreds of keys to drop in value. If they drop by even a scrap, he loses about 6 or so ref; I bet he's trying with all of his power to hold on to the 4.11 price tag, just because he doesn't want to lose money. I agree with the new key price, you get my support for lowering the insanely high prices. Upvoted.

All backpack.tf currencies are wrong because refined price is tied directly to key price and that is tied to buds, so when keys became worth more relative to refined the dollar amount of keys went which then effected buds times 27.

There is no current regulation that allows keys and buds to have a separate dollar price at the moment, so even though the dollar value of keys and buds has pretty much stayed the same; the in game values of these items have gone up relative to refined.

Then since the price of keys has been so unstable, maybe the site should make all prices in ref, thereby standardizing the prices of items in keys and the prices of items in ref

Except then you have unusual that are worth 1000s of refined and doing the conversion is just tedious. I know that's probably not what you meant, but the reason why some items are listed in keys instead of refined is for both convenience when trading along with keys or buds being the more common currency being used to buy that item. Yes it has some flaws, but so would pricing everything in refined because say Bill's is 8 keys day in and day out: now if its priced in refined and the key price rises; suddenly a Bill's Hat has "lost" value since the conversion has changed. This will lead to inaccuracies and more constant price updating every time a key price changes.

I understand it would cause chaos in the TF2 economy but shouldn't it deter people from making a price change for keys? Those who are raising the prices of keys now usually have nothing to lose, but if prices were all based on ref (which can have a converter of the price if rolled over by the cursor), they would know that some of their items (those priced in keys/buds) in their backpack would be affected (aka "lost" in value), making them hesitate from making other suggestions (unless their utterly stupid). The admins of the site can also limit the number of suggestions per period of time since they have the final say anyway.

That would assume that key suggestions are only being made because of how the current backpack.tf pricelist is set up.

I am not assuming that. It is because of these suggestions poorer people have to eke out more ref/get more hats to get a key now and vice versa (through following the pricelist). I am saying that the price suggestions of keys have a massive impact on the pricelist since it is set up in that way (in keys/buds that are not proportionate to changing prices of keys in ref) so that's why i feel it should be changed :)

Maybe there should be a new higher tier of metal?

Course, why would valve deliberately devalue their own keys.

They aren't devaluing their keys. They still get $2.50 for their keys. They have little care over the refined cost of a key. A new tier of metal wouldn't solve anything either.

A new and better metal sink is required. Refined needs to be removed from the game in order for the key price (in refined) to drop. Inflation is normal, after halloween people clicked how worthless refined is and since then it's been hyper-inflated.

Interesting -147.

I dont know whether to feel bad or find it even that more humorous.

You should never comment again. Ever.

Upvote if you disagree with me

Downvote if you support me.

thank the first 4 who supported me! http://puu.sh/2jmd4

lol haters gonna hate

22 people supporting me :)

poor long.

cant tell if extremely narcissistic or just happy because he thinks he is winning a pointless fight.

40 PEOPLE & COUNTING SUPPORT YOU

Ouch.

lol -69 dislikes c:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jrKXf2G-AA

The world's smallest violin says hello, and it's playing a song just for you

Lol, tf2finance just reached 4.1 now.

go for -100 bois.

Almost there. Most disliked comment in BP.TF history?

Goal Achieved. *Insert clapping sound here*. But seriously, the amount of hate you get is enormous xD

Who gives a shit? Get comment downvoted to hell.

130 dislikes?? Is there a record for the highest amount of dislikes?

thats what i said! welp we should start keeping track.

Those downvotes have an opposite effect for me, I almost always read all the hidden comments, and skip the "normal" comments.

Wow, 160 dislikes!

Uhmn, I'm not the most experienced here, but guessing by the -179 score that doesn't mean too much? :s

I think you wasted your sweet time writing that.

says the guy with 44 keys

So what if I have 44 keys?

Meh. Better to have tried than stayed quiet.

Another question is - should trades done in bulk be counted as proof just the same as regular trades? In some suggestions, where there is a bulk discount for someone who bought several, that isn't used as proof for lowering the price. But the same happens at the high end for keys - some people trying to buy many in bulk and paying whoever has enough for them whatever price they've listed. In the proof for the last suggested price, there were people buying 3, 5, or even 10 keys at once. Should these bulk buyers be used as proof of the entire market?

Additionally, usually trades that are only a week old are indisputable as proof. But why is the lower end always allowed to rise when there is proof of recent trades going for less.

Keys seem to be the only item on the entire site (besides new items) that seem to have their own rules - they fluctuate constantly, have bulk trades used as proof, and ignore trades that may have happened only a week, two, or three before when creating ranges.

I wrote this on the increase price vote suggestion.

I will do u one better.

I show proof of higher price sale that is fictitious.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9350515#/32865494

U could even check to see that the transaction occurred.

So up vote this one and down vote other.

I hav been trading my keys at 4 ref for some time now. I dont sell them just treat as 4 ref in trades

id tell you to go sell your overpriced keys to someone else and come back with metal lmao

i meant instead of trying to grab the extra .22 in trades.

for example.

x item with bp.tf price of 3 keys i will often say 2 keys 4 ref etc

Back in the day, "Selling keys 2.33" would get you flamed so bad for being a highballer. It's a shame that this is happening to the TF2 economy. Good work creating this suggestion and putting your time into constructing those notes, regardless of the outcome that this suggestion receives.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9223200 - I bought 14 keys* @ 4 ref within 1 week, even though I had days where I had no metal.

* check the "old trade" link to see how much I sold for my previous price. I make new trades when changing the price.

Even though I usually dont vote on key prices, Im going to upvote this.

Proof of myself, tough it's useless.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9263812

Upvote ! I'm totally agree with you.

Did my comment on the last attempt at key increase inspire this? c:

Nosir. Although if it makes you feel better, yes.

Nah. It'll be nice to have 4 ref flat but it isn't right. Current price is better.

YES! Let's get rid off this key price crap for good! The keys need to go down or the bubble will grow bigger and bigger until it pops! And then the entire economy would crash and we'd have 1930 in TF2! If this doesn't get accepted, I will just keep my hands off the keys and watch it all crash and burn while cuddling my metal.

The key market isn't ever going to crash, nothing else opens crates so it'll be desired at any price. And there's no "bubble" keys have maintained a extremely stable price in the Paypal market.

What bubble sir? I'm not sure a virtual economy pops :s

YOUR A FUCKING GENUIS! I tried this a few weeks ago, got 300 votes and ended up with -17 D: Hopefully yours goes better!

Fuck everyone, i´ll own 100 keys and i´m tired about the refined devaluation. I miss those days when i buy a key for 2.66 ref. Upvote my friend, it does not matter if this suggestion is not accepted

Yes! The price of keys has been pushed back to the start!

If only we cared about our own economy as much as this one.

I support you

I couldn't be asked to wade through the torrent of emotional up votes. It seems like no one's putting any logic into this. Key value will not go down for one simple reason. Key merchants.

Steam market as well as paypal has made it too easy to purchase keys outside of the mann co store, for much cheaper. However these are keys that are already within the economy, not newly generated keys. The only way to generate new keys into the economy is to buy from mann co. As these keys sell, there are less and less for everyone else, and so the price MUST rise or risk a complete destabilization of the economy. Artificially lowering the price is only going to make it useless as a currency and promote artificial inflation of everything else.

Earlier today I spent 3 hours trying to purchase keys off of outpost for 4 ref. Even catching merchants 40 seconds after their post, they were sold out. Down vote, and if the rest of you actually care about the mannconomy instead of wishing you had bought keys when they were cheap, you will too.

I'd argue with you, but the votes speak for themself...

Dr. Feelgood, i love you for doing this.

But it may not be accepted, as some sellers are still successful at 4.11

Hey. I tried.

Definite Upvote, This will make things so much easier, three craft hats for a key, easier definitions of .5 and .25.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8990691 - Bought at 3.66

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9005831 - Bought one at 3.77

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9073621 - Bought at least one at 3.77

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/5628755 - Asking 2.55 (Posted comment yesterday)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9127677 - Bought for 3.66

______________________________________________

I completely agree with this price, way to go. I will be very happy if these drop down to 2.33-2.66 again!

So your proof for lowering the price is that keys have been selling above your suggested price? Price suggestions are for keeping track of the value of items that are being traded, not trying to "set" prices. This website is supposed to be an independent, unbiased source of information for people who want to know whether the person selling an item is giving them a fair price or not. According to your proof, a spread of 4-4.11 looks quite reasonable. There seems to be little reason to remove the spread and try to set a "firm" price other than personal bias. Your "Why are keys rising?" section seems to be quite enough counter-proof for your own suggestion. If prices are rising, then you should not be trying to suggest that they are not, until the bubble actually bursts. It is not our job to try to slow or prevent a bubble bursting, but rather to report the prices leading up to and through the burst.

If this passes then the next step is to suggest keys go to 3 ref and produce 20 fabricated trades to prove it.

Nice proof but ... http://tf2finance.com/keys/

God...stop using that site as a "definite proof"

That site isnt a bible dude

It tracks a lot more trades than we can find proof of.

Including the precious "server trades" that are never included. They are included, as TF2finace.

That site tracks almost all trading of keys. It is a much larger sample size than anyone would ever get for a suggestion. It isn't definite, but Tf2finace > 500 Outpost links, simply because it is those 500 Outpost links + more proof.

Still...don't use it as the "maximum proof"

What do you suggest using instead?

u are just one more greedy key seller

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9184067 4,44 each

ty for trying ruin tf2 economy

I do what I can.

simon the giver, more like taker hah!

Rising key prices do not ruin the economy.

This ^

Nice attempt to defend against this suggestion but.... You are a bit late on the TF2 Finance bandwagon seeing as how someone already mentioned it.

nice work dude but if buyers paying 4.11 then your price totally incorrect , you provided your own counter-proof :(

I personally bought 3 keys yesterday for 4 ref. each within 4 hours. I'd say that price is good. http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9332996

I really hope this goes through! I wish keys would go back down to 2.55 again. People would buy keys for 2.44 each, sell for 2.66. I can't downvote, or upvote because I just have no idea of how the key sellers are thinking of this.

I think "I really WISH..." would be better. I dont think this can pass with how much people here relly on tf2finance

>I would (technically) be losing 5 scraps if this was accepted

not technical at all. entirely artificial.

-10

gotta love key threads

^this

Them haterzz

First time I've ever seen a key suggestion lowering the price that isn't a troll.

I've seen another legit one before the 3.66 suggestion I SHALL SEARCH THROUGH THE THOUSANDS TROLLS AND FIND IT!

We need this suggestion be accepted. This goes for tf2economy.

Congrats on your Atm 69 likes.

Imo

4 ref flat isn't going to cut it

3.88 to 4.11 would make sense, if proof of that were provided.

Lol I like the fact that people are rejoicing iffiysh proof.

I like to be unique :]

Just sold 17 for 2.27 ea

http://i.imgur.com/23xMiE2.png

http://i.imgur.com/yAAkBBO.png

Scrap.tf is buying @ 4.11 and selling @ 4.33 and they've sold 331 keys today.

http://scrap.tf/stats

TF2 finance is @ 4.08 http://tf2finance.com/keys/

I'm gonna have to say nope.avi

mother fuck, geel increase price again ?

who the hell is influencing key price now ?

"sold 17 for 2.27" ... 2.27 ref?

http://i.imgur.com/23xMiE2.png

http://i.imgur.com/yAAkBBO.png

and somebody cannot count now. that is not 2.27 each, thats about 4.11 ref each.

Um no, maybe it's you who can't count.

1) 42.77 ref / 10 keys = 4.277 ref each

2) 29.82 ref / 7 keys = 4.26 ref each

... You said 2.27 ref

Scrap.tf is another place where the 'does bulk count' problem comes into play. Obviously it's possible to find a lower price than 4.33 currently, but scrap.tf makes it available to buy a large amount of keys all at once - so will you count bulk buyers for proof for keys the same way we don't usually count bulk buying discounts for proof in other trades?

Scrap.tf is not a legit reason to increase the price

It is for convenince.

My thoughts exactly

You could 4.11 buy and 4.44 sell and still have only a modest amount of keys.

the same could be said for outpost. ^.-

so beacuse some people are willing to pay any price we should all just go along with w.e they do?

^.-

Yes, unfortunately at least 50% of trades for keys are initiated by online posts, scrap.tf, warehouse, etc. Outpost being by far the most used. Yes, there are the old people who sell keys for 3 ref on tf2 servers. Unfortunately, the buyers on outpost for 4 ref out number those by like 1000 to 1. Therefore outpost is the proof to use. They are not noobs. They have no choice. The server traders are few and far between. Many, not some. Or one could, OVERWHELMINGLY

Scrap bumped the price up very recently, about 10 hours ago the price was still 4/4.22.

No.. just no.

no to you sir

Upvote. Upvote. Upvote. Upvote. btw, I think im gonna Upvote. Idc about tf2 finance. At this point, bp.tf has more say then them. Its about time we give finance something to think about.

tf2finance is an automated service that displays the current average selling price of keys. It doesn't think about what its doing, it just records data.

your votes matter.

you proofs is very poor so.. NO

how about yours? do you have any?!

SOMEONE ON BP.TF IS SELLING FOR 4 REF ON CLASSIFIED!!!!!

AND I BOUGHT IT AT 4 REF!

You are very flustered

We really need this, upvote!!!

NO, WE NEED 4.33

Why 4.33, i've been waiting for 5 ref soo much profit.

Upvote.

Buying keys for 4 ref each add me! Iz gud deal.

I really hope this passes so that keys can come slowly back to 2.66 ref again

Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to the argument.

who wants to bet that stormy sells keys?

This will be difficult to pass but I upvote it; I just hate the fat, greedy sharks on TF2OUTPOST and it's time we cut down the key sellers who are causing this inflation to appropriate size!

I'm a fat, greedy shark. What's up?

And also a nigger, your opinion means nothing here. Go back to my coal mines.

RACIST

admin pls ban im offended !!!!!!!!!!!!

go back to my coal mines? XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD so funny

So mad you even posted at my tf2outpost trade l0l0l0ll0 get mad br0

I'm 10000000% serious ill do it

just giv me the address to the coal mine

I'M POOR AS FUCK I NEED THOSE UNUSUALS

Your mothers pussy street, you will see a giant hole, about 25 feet tall go into it and never come back out again.

The originality of your insult has bowled me over. I applaud you sir, the world is smarter and immeasurably improved for having had that incandescently brilliant thought shared with it.

Your current proof is nice.

Now, prove it can't be sold for higher

Today I actually saw a guy on outpost trying to sell 2 keys at 4 ref

Strange.

Some more successful buyers should do the trick, or like 10 sellers at 4 ref.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to, hes given proof. Plus everyone including myself agree upon this price. Basic terms: you're going into a fight you can't win.

Personally, I think people like 4 ref because it makes everything else fall into place perfectly again (3 craft hats for a key, no pesky finding of recs, etc)

That and screw this inflation. Stay neutral for now because this somewhat just seems like you're trying to artificially manipulate markets but if I see a bunch of successful people buying at 4 and unsuccessful selling at 4.11, it'll get my upvote in a heartbeat.

I agree. 4 ref represents a nice middle ground between practically obtainable and stupid expensive.

The sad thing is that most people who sell keys for these prices daily, would agree that keys are out of control....but won't go with any lower price because they "lose" metal.

BEST. SUGGESTION. EVER.

and I don't care about tf2 finance.

Upvote

I will buy any key you have for 4 ref

I miss the good old days that I can buy a key for 2recs~1ref each (back in late 2010)

Upvote! Current price is too much crazy!

I so want this to happen, so, so badly.

What will probably happend. This suggestion maybe ends with a lot of positive votes, then the admins or whatever they are will say ''nah'' and will decline it.

and accept the increase with -100 some votes :D no corruption here :D

Economy in a nutshell... It just makes remember my country Spain

I'll have to remember that - "Corruption" is defined as "Reflecting what traders are buying and selling for."

"no corruption here"

No sarcasm at all? If you're trying to say you weren't being sarcastic you're lying and you know it.

you're ignorant and you know it.

True - I am because I can't tell if he's being sarcastic or not.

Or are you calling me ignorant for saying this price suggestion is wrong? If it's this one, please elaborate.

If it's wrong, it should still be declined.

yup... your opinions mean nothing here :D

While this may have been the case for past suggestions, admins also take into account other factors when accepting/declining suggestions. But granted, that might not be 100% right.

From what I've seen in this suggestion's comments:

-People who agree with the 4 ref suggestion without much evidence get a good amount of Likes

-People who are trying to reason with everyone else, saying 4.11 does happen frequently get downvoted to hell (especially Long).

For all that it's worth: http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9340511

Haven't been able to get a key at 4 ref yet. And before you say "What about those keys in your BP? Hmm? HMMM?" I've had those keys for a little while. Haven't had much metal to actually buy keys.

You know why the vicious cycle theory is false? Because if it was true, we would've been at 5 ref before the start of this year. Also, key prices jumped because of the unreasonably high demand for keys during Halloween.

But the cycle started from that halloween, lemme ask you do you make snowballs in summer while in...Say the tropics? no, snowballs start when it snows, and continue to get bigger until the spring and it all melts. Theres mah wisdom today, something pushed keys down the hill, halloween we just allowed it to keep rolling

It snows all year in trading, though. Halloween just so happened to be the time people started making snowballs and pushed them down hills.

Well, in accord with your analogy, in a matter of speaking, I'm happy that Dr. Feel Good (I think that's his name) is trying to break this snowball.

I see your point, but as I've responded to others, that trade that you posted took 19 hours, and somewhere in there, they got their key for 4. I bought 3 for 4 ref each in 4 hours: http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9332996. It happens. It really does.

True, it does. Not saying it doesn't. I was saying 4.11 ref happens frequently.

Trust me, I'd love to see key prices fall, but the way the market sits right now that won't happen. If they were to fall right now, demand would spike because of that and people would try to get keys at the lower price asap, then the price would rise again.

The only way I can see key prices falling would be to reduce the demand for keys or increase the demand for metal. If Valve can implement some use for metal besides crafting and make it more desirable, key prices would fall then.

Exactly the same I experienced. I pointed out that I was able to buy keys at 4 ref, but also able to sell them at 4.22 ref each pretty fast when I needed the metal. And guess what. I got downvotes because I explained the current situation...Not to mention that my comment disappeared mysteriously.

It's amazing how key suggestions bring out the irrational side of people, isn't it?

this site puts the tard in retarded....

No, no. It's not the site's fault. It's the people's fault for acting irrational.

Your statement would be like saying car makers are stupid because stupid people use cars.

So if the 4 ref sales disappear quickly, doesn't that mean that the price is higher than 4 ref?

Btw, 4 days ago, I got offered 4.11: http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9227440

And as we can see, your 4.11 seller link has sold out. I rest my case.

na, keys are 5ref

NO >:( tis too cheap :D

i sold 1000 for that in the last 10 min mang. :D

15 ref*****

Upvote! i fully support that key price need to go down, unfortunately the mods will either close this post or accept the increment of the price for their own profit...

Upvoting. I don't care if it gets closed. Just want keys to fall back down.

they won't.

Let's just not buy keys for more than 4 ref. BTW using tf finance as a price bible is dumb as fu**, I don't even know who made this site, it's just a random site, but as you can see, some people say: "hurr durr, finance says 4.08 so I'll downvote"

um...what?

It's going up since refined is going down due to idling

Um I dont think thats necessarily true

I would love for this to pass but can you provide some proof that it is hard to sell a key for 4.11?

That's the point! It isn't hard. Unless these people stop pulling refined metal out of their asses, (Which is why keys are rising) they're gonna keep rising. Suggestions like these are the ones that'll keep the prices down and possibly back to 2.55.

Thats only part of the problem. The biggist problem in my opinion is the fact that everyone can resell. So if somone is selling a key for say 3.88 then it will eather be a) bought and then used to unbox or b) resold at a higher price. In both cases the lower price is taken out of circulation.

A brave man, with good intentions. Upvote!

TF2WH=2.89REF 13000 credits

That's because tf2wh is always overstocked with keys!

don't you mean

out of stock for keys?

Key suggestion base IQ in a nutshell

Who gives a shit about warehouse. The bots are glitchy as fuck and can scam some of your items.

Crusader. I salute you. Upvoted.

so that means you want keys to be 4 ref each? I will buy all you have for 4 ref each :)

I will all you have. Cool.

you have trouble reading.

fine its finally edited.

I´m with you, let´s domesticate ourselves

"domesticate"

isnt that a word in english?

do·mes·ti·cate

/dəˈmestiˌkāt/

Verb

Tame (an animal) and keep it as a pet or for farm produce.

Cultivate (a plant) for food.

Synonyms

tame - reclaim - naturalize

thx, thats exactly what i wanna say

so by lowering the price by 1 scrap, we have officially domesticated ourselves.

a beginning at least

edit: dont like "officially"

DOWNVOTE, I DON'T WANT MY BP TO DROP.

http://puu.sh/2jhr7 lellelelel

upvoted because i am too lazy to read??

Holy shit.. Something that might actually work.. Upvoted!

As I buyer, I put up a trade yesterday to turn 12 ref into 3 keys. did so within 4 hours. The price is there, and I didn't even get any offers above that. I'd agree with that price. http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9332996

Thats some broke ass logic.

The ability to get keys for 4 ref doesn't preclude the success at a higher price. You are all alone in your little universe, experiencing the economy in relative isolation. Your one experience in 4 hours is hardly conclusive.

not necessarily, I don't want to exclude the 4.11. I'm sure that it happens. There are people out there paying 4.33, I'm sure. My point is that this lower end needs to be held at all costs, rather than simply ignoring it once the top end gets upped.

Yea but just voting in a way that isn't actually accurate is not how I'd support the lower end, if thats what you meant we should do.

i got a key for free yesterdy, if i provide a screenshot will you agree with me? :D

Upvoted. Anything above 4 ref is overpay. Lets keep it this way

I hate the key prices, but thats just not how it works.

never thought id see the day when people considered 4ref for a key to be a reasonable price...

Upvote for sure!

enjoy your voting accuracy to drop.

Really? Who gives a fuck about the voting accuracy? "OMGOSH! I HAVE 100% ACCURACY" WHO CARES? That does neither change somthing in the community nor in real life.

calm your butt.

I don't know about you, but I type with my fingers and think with my brains, not my butt. (Sorry, I had to make this joke. It's just that apparently you care more about keeping your 100% than the community. Though I agree with you that 4 ref isn't the price which is currently correct. (I also wrote down my opinion a bit more detailed in a comment below))

What might end up happening: suggestion gets hundreds of upvotes, gets declined by whatever admin.

'backpack.tf goal is to reflect what traders are buying and selling for."

That's the problem.

Keys are in fact going for 4.11+, but only because bp.tf says that.

Backpack.tf is no longer reflecting what traders are buying and selling for, but rather itself.

Unsure of exactly how much backpack influences key prices, but I'd love to see keys not able to have a suggestion made on them for a week and see if the price of keys continues to rise.

Is (seriously) good idea.

This

This is actually 100% what I'm getting at. Couldn't have said it better myself.

tfw nobody cares about tf2finance but key sellers

LOL

ROFL

:))

poor people.

Dr. Feel Good, marry me

http://hahgay.com

I'd rather be gay than you

Well, since you support the key price at 4 ref, I'll buy all of yours for 4 ref :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States

do you even watch community?

I sold my tv for hats

EVERYONE STOP. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PROOF AND COMMON SENSE! I dont care how good the proof is. If more tan 80% of people want this, LET IT BE! You know, backpack.tf prices should be made by the PEOPLE not some mods who only accept proof and not the majorities opinion. If this doesnot pass im ditching backpack.tf and going to use spreadsheet. Because if prices are decided by mods there is NO difference between theese 2 websites. I have seen a lot of key suggestions go up with NEGATIVE votes. Backpack.tf must be made by THE PEOPLE and not 5-6 mods.

true.

Lol ok go back to your spreadsheet with your useless opinions

The problem is, backpack.tf's goal is to reflect current prices. The current price for keys isn't 4 ref. everyone here knows it. If this site started accepting suggestions based on votes, the point of this site would be ruined. We all want keys to go back to down, but as long as people are willing to pay more than 4 ref, its not happening anytime soon. tf2 trading doesn't work on common sense. This site doesn't post prices that you WANT, but rather what the price IS. And yeah i'll probly get downvoted to hell, but oh well ^_^

Tell THE PEOPLE to start trading keys for your desired price, then. When the market stabilizes on that price, make a suggestion and everyone will agree.

My proof is pretty damn shitty.

if this passes the key hype will reverse, hello 2.33 ref keys >:D

yes boycott keys yes do it do it do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The most common price I've seen on in-game trade servers are 4 refined (the people selling for more never got any buyers). I will gladly up-vote this, key prices need to be stabilized. The only reason why key prices are even rising at this point is due to high-ballers who seek profit, and know there are people foolish enough to buy a key for 4.44 refined instead of the price of 4 Refined. I've even been able to buy keys for 4 refined in the past few days.

This will hurt me as well, as I have 10 keys at the moment, but I will accept the "loss" if it means key prices are stabilized. (Sorry for any grammar mistakes, I deal with Dyslexia)

You all know this isnt going to pass... nice try op

Honestly you're going against about 1500+ people, "this isn't going to pass, nice try op." Dude whatever smoking please pass me it, that's some strong shit.

UPVOTED

If i can add proof for mods: http://tf2finance.com/keys/ ( 4.1 ref )

How is showing that tf2finance is at 4.1 refined supposed to help this suggestion? This suggestion intends to lower key price from a range of 4-4.11 refined to 4 refined flat. That would mean the current range is more accurate than the suggested one in question.

It says 4.06 though. That leads to the downfall of 4.11.

Uhh thanks, but I'm not sure tf2finance is 110% reliable and it doesn't help my cause anyways

You do Relize these things when they go down the market is going to go down

Better the market to go down and stabilize, than the market go up and prices go everywhere.

Upvoted, ive sold keys for 4 ref and bought keys at 3.88 this week

Really well put together argument have an upvote. :D

All that of actually all the time will grow in value, so you cant stop rising...

Most of this tf2 people are stupid. All they want is profit, why can't they just be normal and stop overpricing stuff? Upvote

I've been wondering a while now, thinking - who doesn't want profit? Though I'm not supporting the high key prices though, that's just ridiculous.

The real story behind the keys rise:

Sellers want to make profit, which isnt profit a since the price is hyped very frequently.

Buyers not able to find anyone are forced to comply.

The key bankers (the real evil) want to use this infernal site called tf2 finance (which i didnt know shit about before i started reading key suggestion) to downvalue buds, which isnt going to happen.

The admins (the realest evil :p) , lets just say they want to laugh at us for getting so bummed up over virtual items and mess with us by accepting the most absurd key suggestions.

I think its because people sell metal for really low at the market.. not because the keys

The way it works now is that along with sellers raising their own prices, backpack.tf responds to no one selling for a lower price anymore, and raises the range. No matter what the range, sellers sell for at least the high end and buyers buy for at best the low end. One thing directly influences the other, and vice versa.

If anyone can see my comment, then the truth is: Keys started raising when steam market come out. It's nothing about some key buyers want to make profit... It's cheaper to buy keys at the market than in the store. If they use them to open crates then keys are slowly disappearing from tf2 and their price is raising. You can't stop this process. Key will raise until their price will be the same in the store and in the market.

That is incorrect. Why would the metal/key ratio rise if you pay with real money on steam market. Shouldn't the dollar price of the key rise instead? But it doesn't. It is still stable. So your "truth" is incorrect.

Keys used to be bought in the store. Now users buy them from the market because its cheaper. So keys are disappearing and their price is raising.

"Why would the metal/key ratio rise if you pay with real money on steam market"

Because keys are disappearing.

"Shouldn't the dollar price of the key rise instead?"

It's raising too because keys worth more so their dollar price is going up. There will be a balance when keys will be at the same price in the market and in the store, and keys price finally will stop.

Your argument is still invalid. Keys for Paypal money was always part of the economy. This hasn't changed with the Steam market. Yes, on Steam market things are more expensive, but according to your logic keys are disappearing and the price is rising. That's not true. You can still buy keys via SourceOP at around 1.3$ each. And this price has been stable since forever. And according to the key/metal ratio key prices should be at 3-4 ref.

"Keys for Paypal money was always part of the economy"

It is but very low percent of the community use it, because they are worried about getting scammed. Steam Market is safe so it's very popular and it changes the key prices. SourceOP can't be a popular thing because I don't even heard of it. As I said steam market become a safe and popular way to sell keys and thats why key prices raising

Steam market is definitely not popular because steam wallet is useless and serious seller/traders dont use that.

If you havent heard SOP,you shouldnt speak a word about cash trading here,because it simply indicates you dont know anything at all about cash trading.

Items worth more then you can ever imagine is traded on SOP.Do you homework before talking like you know something.

"serious seller/traders dont use that"

-You're right they don't, but anybody else does.

"steam wallet is useless"

How do you buy steam games dude?

"you dont know anything at all about cash trading"

I think 80% of the community don't sell their stuff on paypal so they use steam market, like me.Maybe I don't know cash trading but I know keys are incerasing since steam market.

"Do you homework before talking like you know something."

Don't need to be rude. It's my personal experience and I think this is behind it.

%90+ of cash traders wouldnt want steam wallet,since that money is dead end.No one wants their money sitting aside till you "buy a game".You want your money on your bank account,or your debit card,or both,simply being on your paypal account.

more then %90 of people who ever trade cash knows and uses sourceop,and have solid rep threads there.If you dont have one,and you use steam market because its "safe",as i said before,you are just not serious on cash trading,therefore not entitled to give advice to ones who does.

Also,keys arent rising since steam market came out,key amount on the market is constantly increasing ever since.Your argument is invalid.

One of the reasons probably you didn't know sourceop, because they are not allowing rep-ing (since summer) trades which done outside SourceOP. (like tf2op RLM trades) At least, last time when I was on there,they didn't allow it.

Anyway SourceOP is (still) legendary.

I can't make a comment on Marker's post, so will write it here.

Probably you can't cashing out directly with steam market, but you can make profit and cashout "indirectly". Buying some games which region locked in russia, and then reselling them for keys could worth it. And then you can sell those keys for paypal. (Anyway, buying games with steam wallet only worth at a few games. Still better to get most of them via Russians with keys.)

perfect analysis. This is exactly what is happening.

this is what happens when people pay their rent with an online game...

Too lazy to write a real text, just some facts about the Keymarket.

Lowering the price:

- TF2 finance does not count as counterproof, although it showing the average keyprice

- 10 links of proof are enough

- Ocolus analyze the proof of suggestions which are raising the keyprice, but he isn't looking at the links here

- Kids who just want that the price drops will upvote it, no matter how unaccurate and stupid it is

Raising the price:

- TF2 finance is wrong, BECAUSE it's showing the average price

- 200 links of proof are still not enough proof (10 Outpostpages)

- Ocolus spends alot of time to analyze the proof

- Kids who just don't want that the price rise will downvote, no matter how good the proof is

Some more random facts:

- backpack.tf is not manipulating the prices, the kids who say "I don't want that the price rises, but I'll continue buying keys for metal!!!1" are manipulating it.

- Upvotes on lower prices do not really count anymore, most of them are based on the opinion of mad people, who are sick of this

- Downvotes on higher prices do not really count anymore, most of them are based on the opnion of mad people, who are sick of this

- The market won't crash till Valve does something with keys and/or metal

- The keyprice will continue rising because everybody is paying the prices of OP-profitwhores

Fact:

Increase in price suggestions are usually made by profitwhores who only care about themselves being rich. Example: Volpiii.

Decrease in price suggestions are usually made by kind hearted and caring people who want to help others get stuff too. Example: Dr. Feel Good.

Also, I see a ton of keys in ur BP, so most likely you don't want this to happen because u will lose refs.

that moment you realize you are talking to the person you tell gossip about.

"Increase in price is usually made by profitwhores"

No, not really. It happens because kids are still paying higher prices.

"who only care about themselves being rich."

Why would we trade if it wasn't for profit just to get some cash or to buy some unusuals to wear ingame?

"Example: Volpiii." - I seriously don't give a fuck on my BP value since I base my trading on unusuals, not on metal.

"Also, I see a ton of keys in ur BP, so most likely you don't want this to happen because u will lose refs."

Same as above. Also, everything what is priced in Keys> will increase in price, and the 20$ which my BP will rise aren't worth a shit to me because I'm not using PayPal.

Btw. I could also change all my Keys to Bill's hats. And then? Your fact = Blown.

WOW, A COUPLE OF DOLLARS IN A $1500 BACKPACK MATTER.

your bp is worth 1 key. ROFL

I could do the analyze on this one too, but the last one also took 2 hours, and most of them would be [4.00 current range].. Or invalid.

In my opinion there is no chance for this one to pass while tf2finance show 4.10 atm. and the other one got also closed.. Sadly it is a fact 4.11 was valid yesterday, and according to finance same for today. Also, he did counter-proof himself, and ~11 proof (valid or not) wouldn't be enough for a key suggestion.

Long story short: 4 ref is in the current range, it would only remove the high-end. In my opinion the 3.88-4.11, or a 3.88-4.22 would be the best, and then remove the option of key suggesting. Or a real-time tf2finance implemented key price.

But since there is not too many links, I can do it if you want so much.. :P

So about the proofs: I don't really like the idea of mixing the buyer and sellers links. At least, the original notes was in the way, and I won't "indicate" them.

BUYERS

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9333392[/url] - ♛ME♛ Orthix_™ - [4.00 in current range] - no new keys, 34 keys and 13.77 metal in his bp

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9310768[/url] - Fieldy - [4.00 in current range] - tons of ref, and tons of keys, but no new keys

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8287902[/url] - (-(-_-)-) - [4.00 in current range] - reselling in the same thread for 4.33 no new keys, no new metal

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9231338[/url] - [Rct] Hawk - [4.00 in current range] - 1 new key

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9317019[/url] - Sk3ppy.- - [4.00 in current range] - Trade done, resold in the same thread for 4.33 (no new key, or metal)

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9340773[/url] - Atticus Finch - [4.00 in current range] - Trade done, Last bump: 8 hours ago, no new key, also his keys only on the second page, I think he got them earlier. (But too old to be sure.)

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9271181[/url] - arpadex - [4.00 in current range] - 0 key in his bp, only 0.88 metal in his bp from them 0.33 are new. Have also have !!6!! new strange holiday punch in his bp. (Not sure if he got any key, but I guess he had to pay with key OR ref for those holiday punchs.)

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9316988[/url] - [DMN] William. - [4.00 in current range] - 0 new key, 4 key probably from earlier

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9342825[/url] - Firedog - [4.11 in current range] - O_o this is a key SELLING trade, but buying keys in this trade... strange. Anyway, "Out of Stock!" not sure if he meant keys or refs. (0 key at all, have some "older" metal)

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9349103[/url] - Fable - [4.00 in current range] - Trade done, Last bump: 11 hours ago, only 2.66 metal in his bp, 0 key, no new items (Too old trade?)

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8873275[/url] - Finn_The_Human - [4.11 in current range] - 1 new key, Reselling in the same thread for 4.33, 1.55 new metal

(Am I missed any link?)

Counter-"Counter-Proof" thing:

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/6962413[/url] - Fang. - Sold exactly the same amount for 4.33 and 4.11? Pretty weird.. 5 ref price ridiculous itself. (17.33 new metal, more than 90 new keys, new big kill, not sure when or for what he got these stuffs, did he rob someone? :D )

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9216391[/url] - IT. - [4.11 in current range] - no new keys, 4.22 new metal probably from his key banking trade , some other metal and 2 keys in his bp.

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9212023[/url] - YN | ChiefInStaff - [4.11 in current range] - No new key, 0.44 new metal, plenty of new other stuff (12x tod ticket, 2x upgrade to premium, meet the medic, 2x name tag, etc.)

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9349544[/url] - [Oz] Bunnyofthesea - [4.11 in current range] - Trade done, Trade opened: 15 hours ago, Trade last bump: 15 hours ago. No key at all, have only 3.88 metal. Closed in less than an hour (fake trade/"counter-proof"?)

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9350261[/url] - grimdercell - [4.11 in current range] - Trade done, closed in less than an hour (fake trade/proof?), Last bump: 15 hours ago, No new items at all, have 2 keys and 2.11 metal in his bp.

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9332664[/url] - herrabanani [keys for 1.29$] - Trade done, Last bump: 7 hours ago, only 3.22 ref in his bp, all 3.22 are new. 7 keys in his bp, all 7 are new.

Ocolus, you spend too much time on this :I

Okay. :l [url]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lndswgG1Np1qch7pn.jpg[/url]

It just wouldn't be fair, if I would miss this one. :F (Meanwhile I myself would prefer lower key prices. Around 3.33-3.66.)

Oh and almost forgot, tf2finance: 4.06 Refined!

It's not bad, but you just spend too much time on this :D

Backpack.tf is definitely influencing prices. Here's the conversation I have every time I buy keys:

Me: Hey, you're selling a key?

Seller: Yep, what are you paying?

Me: *Insert low end of backpack.tf price here* refined

Seller: Well, I just checked backpack.tf and I'm selling for *Insert high end of backpack.tf price here* refined.

Then I've no choice but to buy because somehow this person is still the cheapest seller I can find.

Then some person comes along, says "Hey, nobody sells for the low end of the backpack.tf price! I'll suggest a BRAND NEW price that puts the HIGH END at the LOW END.

Seriously, I can't tell you how many times this has happened.

Backpack.tf has some effect on manipulating prices as it sets the current price keys are selling at, and greedy sellers sell for more than that price forcing the price to be bumped up again, and again. Without backpack it would either flux up and down or just go up even faster, in my opinion. My idea is that if keys do go down by even 1 scrap (eg. this suggestion is accepted) then people will realise that keys aren't a 100% valid source to make profit, and some will abandon making profit off keys which will be good to help flux. Also this is making metal more and more redundant, which is quite problematic.

The madness when this gets closed with an 80% upboat.

i only buy keys with paypal and i rarely have metal so this doesn't affect me but this crap should stop. the best thing everyone can do is to stop buying them for a while. post offers and trades everywhere for like 2.55.

Ok, here is my experience: I was able to buy keys at 4 ref with ease. But at the same time selling keys at 4.22 ref each was easy as well. (I needed metal again :/ )

Yes, this suggestion sounds reasonable and it would simplify calculating with .75 prices, but unfortunately this site is supposed to keep track of the current price and I experienced otherwise than your suggested price.

Sadly this changed and many traders relate to backpack.tf prices too much. It isn't a flaw of this site but a flaw in people. If we want to change the outcome maybe we have to change the thinking of the people, but I have no clue how to do that.

Edit: It's interesting how every opinion which is critical gets a downvote. I posted my opinion, in which I clearly said that I would really appreciate a change downwards but that it probably won't happen as long as people see backpack.tf as price dictating site, and get some dislikes a few seconds later.

Omg we waont key 2.66 nao - 65 likes

Good argument about keys with proof - "Show Hidden comment"

but since the actual idea of trading has to do with what the sellers and buyers value the items, wouldnt the fact that the majority of traders want it to go down mean something? if everyone wants it to go down, why not make the majority happy.

I wish .....

Glad to see some people still have their sanity.

I think that if we are gonna get this high on key prices, 4 ref should be the line. when someone says .5, they dont have to smelt so much. it is 2 solid ref.

While i still do not like the price of these damned keys, I think 4 ref is stable and should stay there. Period.

Upvoted!!

For the 10 character limit thing you can put spaces, just a quick tip.

thx

I have a good amount of keys, but I am totally going to agree with OP. The rising prices of keys is getting out of hand. It's a never stopping vicious cycle.

I have only bough 3 keys for 4 ref each, http://www.tf2outpost.com/trades took me like 3-4 days. Accepting this would be price manipulation.

I bought around the same amount in the past days for 4 ref, but I didn't have any trade for this, or note in my name.. Just some random guy (from previous trades) on my friend list wanted some ref.

I've bought several over the past 3 days on the /r/tf2trade server for 4 ref. People treat them as 4 ref when buying or selling them. I also see people on the subreddit itself buying them for 4 ref and being upvoted, and for 4.11 and being upvoted. It seems to me like the current range is fine, at least from the limited spectrum I'm using.

In 3 days i've bought 4 keys, and all of them within the first day, the second i've got 2 kids adding tough in my trade said I didn't had metal, and today someone else added me. IT'S NOT HARD, IF YOU CAN STILL BUY AT THAT PRICE; WHY RISE? today I've saw someone selling 16 keys at 4 ref, I can't fucking find him but he probably sold them all in 5 min.

Exactly, 4 ref keys are out there, you just have to be patient. Impatient people pay 4.11 or more.

Conclusion? Key trades happen between 4-4.11 ref or sometimes more.

I would upvote any decrease in keys even back to 2.55 cause the key prices are just stupid and made because of too many greedy key whores in this economy

I'll buy your keys

3 ref each (4 scraps more than your price, super profit)

I upvoted becasue even though the proof isn't great I think the only reason the price of keys keeps going up is because we keep voting it up 1 scrap at a time and then sellers feel like they can ask for 1 scrap more than the price here.

Key down vote again. I don't understand this logic people are continuing to say keys are slowly dissapearing from the trading market. I myself buy key's once a month through Mann Co Store kinda like PMS lol. Keys in Mann Co Store are unlimited there will be no shortage of keys through there. Yes maybe the market sellers will refuse to sell keys if they can not make profit. Big fucking deal you can still save your paypal gift cards or however you get money in paypal save that then buy keys once a month. You can get 2 keys for under 5 bucks still and Mann Co Store isn't loosing keys nor will they ever loose keys. As I stated before keys are the bread and butter of tf2. It only cost 2.49 to open a crate in 3 secs. Suck it up and buy from mann co if you have to. I paid 50bucks for the game when it first came out and I still buy keys ever since support the game stop being cheap!

KEYS ARE GOING UP BECAUSE: MORE PEOPLE ARE PLAYING TF2 WHICH CAUSES MORE ITEMS TO BE DROPPED, THUS MORE METAL AVAILABLE. THIS CAUSE METAL TO GO DOWN WHICH CAUSES MUCH INFLATION ON PRICES

lol barely anyone plays tf2 anymore. all i see is idling and trade servers mostly. thankfully the true gamers are still playing 2fort and that's got nothing to do with stupid looking hats or mentally retarded people spending their support cheques on virtual cosmetics.

Key numbers already went above 500k+

http://stats.tf/item/5021/Mann_Co._Supply_Crate_Key

Keys amount in the market is increasing rapidly,more and more every day.

Upvoted.

flawless logic 10/10

Not how it works. How many of those keys are for sale for metal versus how many people with metal want keys.

ya, prolly half are being horded by people so they can sell when keys get voted up to 5ref...

Well keys are 5 ref why sell, since $ of ref is going down they'll still end up with same amount of $

~2.47 compared to refs. Lowest ratio for last 6 month for sure.

As soon as keys drop one bit they're gonna crash, everyone will be selling them.

Upvote, we can only hope.

It's exactly what happened to S. Rainblowers and S. Lollichops.

UPVOTE FUCK YEAH

http://tf2finance.com/keys/ Has just reached 4.1!

Nope.avi. Went down to 4.06.

I've been tracking keys numbers for a while,and your argument is invalid.

Key numbers already went above 500k+

http://stats.tf/item/5021/Mann_Co._Supply_Crate_Key

Keys amount in the market is increasing rapidly,more and more every day.

a lot of keys are from carders & f2p buying keys to sell for metal. key amount does not matter

This is the most stupidest thing i've ever heard on my whole trading career.

Key amount doesnt affect key prices?

Your brain is dead,or not functioning correctly.

lel

yup... and yet key sellers keep perpetuating the idea that there are no keys anywhere and no one wants metal... and people just eat it up :D

lmao

is what ive been tryin to tell people for months >.>

I am not on any side at all. I have barely any metal, and i have no keys either. We all want the price to go down, but the sad thing is, that's just not going to happen as long as buyers are willing to pay the price the sellers want. Also, if this suggestion is accepted, that would be price manipulation, which would turn this site into something like spreadsheet. The site's job was to reflect current price. It was never meant to be used as a bible, but more like a guide. But that's not what happens. This has became like a bible, and whatever backpack.tf says is the right price. But sellers will always overprice their items, and then buyers will be forced to buy it when they can't get it for cheaper. And then backpack.tf raises the price again, and its an endless cycle. But the sellers aren't at fault here. They want profit, nothing wrong with that. That was pretty much the point of the trading system. Its a battle between sellers and buyers. If buyers accept the price the sellers are selling at, then the price will go up. If the buyers don't buy at the sellers price, they will be forced to lower the price. But the buyers are giving in, and the sellers end up making a profit, as they wanted all along. Unfortunately this suggestion will be declined. I am confident this will get a insane number of up votes, but votes don't matter as much as you think. If this site accepted everything based on votes, it'll be controlling the market. People who want key prices to go down, will up vote, those who want key prices to rise, will down vote. But those are all opinions, and this site doesn't make prices based on opinion. This site is a big reason the price is rising, but that's only because people are using this as a bible, which it was never meant to be. The only way the key prices will go down, is if people stopped buying them from overpriced sellers, which won't happen, because keys are an important part of tf2. You need keys to get stranges, hats, and most importantly, unusuals.

Its true :_:

This has got to be the best comment in this suggestion.

your acting like it would be the first time the admins of this site manipulated prices ^.-

wanna give me an example?

just off the top of my head... when the ball-kicking boots bought in the store were changed to all be clean, and the price of clean ones was almost instantly changed by an admin to match the price of uncraftables... no "proof", the change was based SOLELY on their opinion.

they were even so clueless that they went and told everyone what they did on the steam discussion board...

tho that thread would seem to have vanished lol

Much better argument, and infinitely more well thought out than just listing 50+ Outpost trades. Upvote

Sometimes, I think that bp.tf is causing the ratchet effect and price fixing. Often times, people will sell items for a greater price than the recommended price for profit purposes, or for sentimental value. They key phenomenon is simple. People will hold on to their keys for a longer period of time because they can wait to sell it at a higher price. I think the admins are NOT going to like this considering how much credence this entire suggestion has.

I don't even think the admins care much. Because the popular vote doesn't seem to say whether it's going to be raised or lowered.

Just like American voting for presidents. Popular vote means dick, its all about the electoral college.

they dont care... they just do w.e they want.

this whole thing is just a big troll...

You can tell the tf2 economy is fucked when keys are this god damn high.

It is. The TF2 economy is in the process of being destroyed by itself due to self-monopoly on the price of keys. This affects other items too' like buds, ever since keys started being "just some money", and this is causing instability is item prices because their key value is changing, but refined or $ value is the same.

Upvoted, but keys aren't going to stop rising until they cost so much ref that even the idiots who would like to pay those ridiculous prices simply can't. As long as there are people who can profit off of this madness, nothing is going to change.

Keys need a solid price and should be keep at that solid price.

If only upvoting and having this accepted would change anything....

having this accepted would change a lot. But it won't be accepted, and if it is, that would be price manipulation

It won't change a thing and if you think it will you're a fool.

"LOL SHEET QUOTES"

this site is like a bible to traders now. If it says 4 ref, a lot more people will sell at 4 ref.

Really? Since I swear when I do a search for sellers all I see is 4.33+ and here site it's listed for less. Your logic is flawed mate.

there will always be people overpricing their sutff, but if this site sets the price at 4, if you put up a trade buying it 4, you'll run out of metal much faster than you would now.

that was beautiful! ;')

Up-vote!

I miss the days when people were pissed about key prices going up to 2.77.

Just because you find buyers buying for 4 refined means nothing. Here are sellers selling for

4.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9315975

4.55

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9326224

5.00

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9190000

I could literally go on all day showing you people selling for above 4.11 refined. Just because the key price is high doesn't mean you need to down rate it on backpack.tf... the seller dictates the price and unfortunately, the sellers sell for above 4.11 refined. Nobody likes it but you need to stop being bias just because you don't like this. In order for this website to function correctly you need to put your opinions aside and face the sad facts.

...The prices were risen because of the opinions of the sellers...

Actually people buying for 4 ref means a lot more than people selling for 5 does. Something's value is based on what people are willing to pay for something. You can try to sell things for more than people are willing to pay all you want, it doesn't mean you're going to sell any.

I'd like to hear a good reason for this not passing. The previous two suggestions passed with significantly negative votes. Does Dr.FeelGood not have enough admin friends?

because people are buying for 4.11 refined.

0% care about votes

0% care about opinions

100% care about proof

100% care about noobs offers on outpost u mean?

0% care about logic ^.-

Baloo just gave you a good reason. I'd like to hear what you think.

My comment might just be downvoted to oblivion or deleted, but I think part of the reason why it's increasing is the price itself. People who are selling keys don't want the price of the keys to go down. As it increases by a scrap, people who have keys don't want to be "scammed off a scrap".

So now we have people obeying the increasing price because they don't want to lose a scrap. The buyers can't do anything about it IS the price. It's on the site where all the prices are technically correct, and no-one is going to sell a key for one less scrap! So they buy. The price increases again. They have to buy. Increase. Forced buy. Rinse and repeat.

That's just how I see the whole process currently. ._.

U serious?

Do you really think that doing Ref:Key-trades is the only way to get some Keys?!

no, im just proving a point, good day.

http://puu.sh/2jtes Look how many I bought at 3 REF!!1

http://puu.sh/2jteI nauw iam selling at 5 REF!

dis provs that we can buy at 3 ref!!!!!

/sarcasm

Just wanted to point out that you argument is invalid and stupid.

How did I point it out? Insulted you with your own proof = Sarcasm.

I'm actually trying to keep the market somewhat clean since little kids like you are ruining it.

You get here and shout "MY OPINION IS FACT!". Why the frog should the price be 4 Ref if the average is currently 4.07-4.10 Ref each key? Please tell me, you have more sense about the market than me.

Mr. I'm-mad-because-my-BP-isn't-worth-a-shit (Argumenting with this is so childish, but whatever)

Lelelelee, your account isn't even existing for a year and you have less than 350 hours in TF2.

I'm just going to upvote this, doesn't matter what counterproof may be on here.

Oh and to all you "Back in the good ol' days.." people, here you have something to remain faith in humanity http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9366866

Upvoted. I SALUTE you, good sir.

Whoever started this wonderful suggested thank you

Good proofs, Upvote!

Upvote from me dude, You are right. :D

I think we need to put a cap on it for a while at 4 ref. Some will buy for a scrap more but that single scrap isn't really worth to make it official. Let's just keep it at 4 ref and let give demand time at least.

I really hope it goes down. Even though I have a couple keys, I just really want it to go back down to 2.66 :(

I am going to have to agree with your new price suggestion, in fact I dont even see why keys went from 3 to 4 refined, you can still buy them in the store for 2.50, and you can buy them in the market for even less. However, with the release of all these new crates, the demand for keys has gone up, but as long as the price of a key being 4 refined isn't permanent I think everybody will be happy...

Bought plenty @ 4 ref, upvote... Besides, high buyers EXPECT key prices to rise. Let's bring it down to 4 ref and keep it there for a while, that's a nice number. Maybe then the inflation will slow down a bit.

I totally agree with your substantiation, but as long as I can sell them easily for 4,44 (sold 3 this afternoon on a trade on outpost that was posted 3 hours earlier)

I would sell them. And also, for me as a beginning trader (since November last year) it's very profitable. And because of the rising of the key prices I am where I am now. (I only started with a singe tossle cap)

After all I honestly don't know what to vote. As long as people are willing to pay more than a whole reclaimed above the price I will do that.

My respect for you well substantiated vote-description!

ps. a proof of my sale this afternoon: http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9366325

What is that, your rep thread now? Since when do people +rep in an outpost trade?

I don't know, ask him :)

You have to love when people lie, he has any key on his backpack, and no relative trades of keys, and the buyer has bought only 3 and "1 hour ago". Lol, obviously this is a fake trade, there's new metal on you but no new keys on him.

to me he said he needed 3 more keys to buy his first unusual. feel free to ask him.

How you can tell the mods are considering this/battling themselves on it: 1200+ votes and it hasn't gotten shut down yet.

this is the first suggestion lowering the prices, thats not trolling :P It might end up being right. Key prices have somehow stabilized, and this morning finance was at 4.1, and now at 4.06, lets see if it can go down to 4 now

That's why I even said it; no key suggestion has been passed lowering keys in a long, long time.

has any key suggestion lowering prices have EVER been passed? o.O

2.55-2.66, yes, tons.

This is the first step to fixing a big problem.

Though it would be nice if keys go down, they're not going to. This can get 1000 upvotes, but will still be closed, due to a lack of proof. No-one wants metal, and there's a limitless supply of it. Personally, I can easily afford keys, but I'm just sad that newer traders who rely on drops will no longer be able to afford a key. But that's what's gonna happen, sorry folks.

this actually might be passed. Finance was at 4.1 this morning, and dropped down to 4.05 right now, the demand for keys seem slightly less right now

My god...

TF2finance went down to 4.05...

I think the price might actually be stabilizing...

:'D

Outpost sucks, yet backpack always follows it's trends.

Backpack:I sell keys for 4-4.11 ref

Outpost: Yah, but I sell them for a scrap more

Backpack:Sounds fair, I'll just raise my price to your standard then.

Outpost:Whoops, then I guess I gotta raise my prices by a scrap.

backpack: Than I shall do the same!! :D

If you want to change this trend, up-vote for the future of TF2

They should call you God

Except backpack.tf doesn't sell keys and neither does outpost, technically. You're pinning a whole website and its public reputation to a few people that try to profit which is normal in the trading realm. The only problem is buyers are giving in to these higher prices which is causing prices to rise, not two websites that you're trying to personify. Generalizations like these are how misinformation, prejudice, and discrimination, arise in an otherwise normal community.

I'm glad that votes aren't viewable by the public. This is some crazy shit.

I bet it is...

Ahhhhhhh I love the smell of rage in the morning

7:13 P.M is morning?

Don't get loud with me sir

There is more then one country that uses backpack.tf. You are not special.

My mom says im a special snowflake.

Never give up on yourself, no matter what you are still yourself.

I bet money if an admin doesn't accept this.

Seriously, they accepted a suggestion that was downvoted into ham and was raising the key price. Another suggestion wanted to lower key price and it had a ham load of proof and it has a lot of positive votes. It got closed.

I audibly lol'd at the first long comment being -133.

EDIT: I didn't even bother reading what he wrote. But after looking back and seeing its TF2 finance link; it made sense.

I did see a trend though after looking back and seeing some of the accepted suggestions that should not have been or vice versa and its a lot of gold dick. Wonder who will accept or deny this one.

I am upvoting this needs to be done

Didn't read all that, but a decrease in Key prices is long overdue. Upvoted

God this is what's killing this site.

1) Vote to lower keys

2) Everyone upvotes because they want cheap keys

3) Admins close vote because there's much more proof against than for the suggestion

4) Everyone complains that the site is corrupt because admins denied a vote which clearly had more votes for than against

1) Vote to raise keys

2) Everyone downvotes because they want cheap keys

3) Admins approve because there is good supporting proof and many people already paying/trding above current value

4) Everyone complains that the site is corrupt because admins approved a vote which clearly had more votes against than for

Voting on key prices needs to be changed because right now not only is it pointless to vote but it's also giving the site bad reputation.

IF THERE ARE MORE UPVOTES THAN DOWNVOTES ACCEPT THIS ADMINS DO NOT BASE THIS OFF WHAT YOU THINK, WE KNOW HOW THIS WORKS JUST WATCH PRICE DROPS, ASKING PRICE DROPS FORCING SELLERS TO SELL FOR LESS. DO NOT GET RID OF THIS JUST BECAUSE YOU FOUND ONE LINK SHOWING THAT SOMEONE IS SELLING FOR 4.33. (caps needed).

Why should the price be 4 Ref if the average selling price is 4.05 - 4.10 Ref and 95% of the upvotes are based on opinion of mad people?

I want to hear your argument.

Because Tf2finance has been going down all day. Either people are selling for less or people aren't buying.

It's still at 4.06, perfectly between 4 and 4.11 Ref.

And it haven't been going down all day, it happened suddenly in about 150 minutes.

Still not 4.1 like the beginning of the day and it's a huge spike downward. Plus, the past 5 hours are typically the peak of trading on Sunday.

*hasn't, by the way. Didn't you mention earlier on that you were German or something (not that it has anything to do with your English, I'm just curious)

Yes, I live in germany. It's 1:30 AM here right now btw.

You have fairly nice English for a nonnative speaker.

And English>German. German cases confuse me to no end, like Akkusativ and Dativ. Still can never figure out when to use them and when to not.

Back on topic, finance took a huge hit during normal trading hours which is not normal to say the least. It might be shock from this suggestion, it might simply be the fact that keys are actually at 4 ref. In my opinion, I've seen far more current sales and purchases at 4 ref than 4.11.

is it just me or does every german word end with the letter "z"? O.o

if not at least half them... lol

tf2finance has always fluctuated in a range.

Usually right after a price change and not that straight down of a drop in less than 5 hours

Its a range. It is still fluctuating in current range.

and those same 'mad people' are the majority of the trading community. I barely ever see emphatic 'The price must go up!' traders anywhere... ever.... If the majority wants a virtual pixelated item to be worth less. why not make the majority happy?

That's like everyone complaining about the price of gas being too high and the occasional "It needs to keep going up because stocks/other things!". If everyone wants gas to be worth less, then why isn't it?

gas is real. keys are virtual. thats why dark-hello2. thats why......

Not really, you're basically just saying that since we all think that something should be worth less that it should, virtual goods has nothing to do with it because it also translates into real money.

This game is about fun, sir. In my opinion some people take trading a little too seriously.

ive seen people buy bottles of sugar water for $6... in general people are fairly stupid.

Its going to force, physically force without any way of possibly resisting, sellers to sell for less?

Well of course lets hope that this gets passed. We all know why the keys are being inflated in the first place: The greedy key sellers on Outpost.

Upvoted.

I have like 60 keys in my backpack but totally agree with what you're saying. Upvoted. Just do not take care on what Long says. He had a shitload of carded keys until yesterday,when I told him how that keys were. He just bought buds and sold them at same price to "wash" his carded key. GG

mad cuz now he can't afford key http://puu.sh/2jAMP

I forget what the point of this post was.

something about a badger?

we are the 99%. and we want keys to at least stabilize! also, just becasue of this suggestion and its will to stay alive as a suggestion has successfully led tf2finance (the unofficial god of pricing) to make the key price go down. That just goes to show how this is actually a price manipulative site. this site doesnt reflect the trades. the trades reflect this site......

Please make this suggest work

It's about time that someone is trying to take a stand against all of those high key prices! Good for you Dr. Feel Good!

Upvoted!

y cant people treat keys like any other item?

everyone go post a lowball on outpost and wait for 3 weeks until someone breaks down and sells...

then after a few people sell, suggest a new price here with your awsome "proof", then go around to servers telling noobs thats the new price.

Upvoted! I see a lot of people sell for 4 refined in servers.

4 refined should hopefully be a stable price for awhile. (Hopefully)

Lookin' good. Defeated suggestion: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/5144baafba25360048000005

I don't know which outpost you guys are going too, but my key buying thread hasn't had a single hit, and anything sold for 4 ref or less is immediately sniped, literally in under a minute.

If anything keys should be normalized at 4.11, not 4.

yo long, I think you should just stop commenting. nobody seems to like them. xD

Good job, Doctor Feel Good. I want to thank you for putting so much time and effort into this suggestion. Upvote from me :3

Wont be accepted. Enjoy your- rep point.

Them noobs be hatin on everything long says

Even if he says hi

Why thank you sir. :]

Looks like Brad is gonna be the one that has to close or accept it. Close to 1000 positives if not more already and none of the mods want to touch this one. Gonna be a shitstorm either way,

EDIT: http://puu.sh/2jDiD - lawl

in the end the result is brads opinion... like usual;p

eh, not to say Brad is right or wrong. But i personally dont agree that this site or any site is correct in having "voting" on currency price.

Not really. Mods and other users have found proof that a flat price of 4 ref is inaccurate, including buyer trades offering 4.11 ref per key. Its just up to Brad to close it because nobody else wants to be the guy to close such a controversial suggestion, despite it still being wrong.

A shitstorm indeed.

All the presumptuous poor and Irish and vote up

Mods too scared of gigantic wave of hate to close even though it will

Brad closes

Bp.tf noobs rampage

You have my full support ^-^

The price of keys is just too ridiculous! 2.33 is and was a very VERY reasonable price for keys!

Upvote!

2.3-2.6 was actually more reasonable IMO, 2 for 5ref worked very well.

what MAKES it reasonable though? Is that simply based on opinion?

What a pickle this is for backpack.tf. Accept it, appease the community, and bring price manipulation into the picture. Decline it, disregard the views of the community, and keep it stable. Tough decisions. I wish the mod team luck with this one.

yea its real each time a guy makes it go up to 4.22 ppl in outpost will sell it at 4.44

at least your not greedy like long218 :P

Long is not greedy. Ref drops like every time a key suggestion is passed.

Thank you for your biased an unproven contribution.

Upvoted, because honestly this has to end eventually. Sure, people can make an argument that a key is easy enough to sell for 4.11 or higher, but anyone else can make the same argument that it is still possible to buy a key for 3.88 or lower

then the range should reflect that.

UPDATE - Thank you guys for so much positive feedback. I saw 200 notifications and literally logged off for a hour on backpack thinking there would just be so much hate on this suggestion, but it has been mostly positive :] Although there are a few comments with good reasons why keys should rise, there are also plenty more why the should stay low! Let's see if this happens, and thank you backpack.tf community once more!

I have about 250ish keys and I support this suggestion. Please do the same and we can save the falling tf2 economy.

I hate this suggestion and I love it at the same time because it really needs to happen, but also it kinda goes against bacpack.tf's role of being just a neutral guide on the price of things and maybe manipulate the price a tad.

yeah but backback.tf is at fault too and that too a BIG ONE on only relying on outpost posts. That is no way to fucking decide a a price.

Mmm. Key prices really should be solid on backpack.

That took true guts!!!!!!!

BY THE WAY - IT IS NOT KEYS THAT ARE RISING, IT'S METAL THAT'S DROPPING.

I think another reason keys have gone up is b/c people want to buy large amounts of keys with ref, just to sell them to the community market to get some money. The demand would make sellers start raising the price b/c people would still buy it.

OK EVERYONE! There is no way that this will pass. There is no real proof and counterproof times infinity. Everyone is upvoting for stupid reasons like "hurr durr if the price on tf goes down the market price will go down", but it wont. This is because the key sellers might look at this and think "the actual price is still 4.11" and because keys are nescesary for trading, you people will still buy. The only thing that this sugestion will do is trick new ptps who just bought there first key into getting ninja'd out of there keys.

Sold 4 keys at 3.93 each. http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9382827

Es gud.

Current range is fine as is supported by tf2finance (4.08 atm)

All the trades you listed were buying trades which 90 percent of the time are underpriced.

http://scrap.tf/keys you have scrap.tf which is sold out @ 4.33 refined.

Besides we are already not including people who have sold some at 4.33/4,66/5+