Suggestion: Mann Co. Supply Crate Key at 4–4.22 ref

Price Suggestion

~57.22 ref

804 votes up

1118 votes down

Related Suggestions

This suggestion was accepted Thu, 21 Mar 13 18:49:58 +0000 by A Distinctive Lack of Vincent.

Comments can no longer be left on this suggestion.

Comments

Got closed because rudeness.

http://tf2finance.com/keys/ 4.13. Look at the chart: http://puu.sh/2koXC

Buyers at 4.11 or higher:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9374280

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9403339

http://redd.it/1al2bp

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9394351

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9355877

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9331737

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9386988 4.22

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9406275

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9263359

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9368123

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9409786

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9301076

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9342004

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9274281

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9359057 4.22

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9212328

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9324831

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9346329

Sellers successfully at 4.11+:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/6962413

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9148728

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9407297

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9252173 adds for 4.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9345463

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9390621 out of stock

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9378064 out of stock

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9409145 http://puu.sh/2kpcQ obviously sold a few

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9409259

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9359697 add at 4.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9354123 adds at 4.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9309158 adds for 4.22

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9370745 add at 4.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9153351 add at 4.22

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9317445 out of stock at 4.22

Don't attack me and I won't attack you guys. Peace.

inb4 "you just posted this, downvote. He's just manipulating key prices. He's just doing this to raise his bp value" and so on and so forth.

Don't see the point of it seeing refined drops when keys rise.

No one does, but it keeps happening and we are told to STFU and deal with it.

markets don't change just because you don't understand them

*ahem*

http://tf2finance.com/2013_03/

Base64 did an analysis. And recent too. People have no excuse for ignorance.

Key - USD is stable

Key - Ref isn't stable

Let's say a Key costs $1 on the "black market" and 5 Refined.

The price for Ref would be $0.20 a piece.

If the price of Key - Ref rises but Key - USD is stable, then Ref decreases in USD value.

are you talking about on the site or the actual prices? because I thought refined was losing USD value as well

I said that Ref is decreasing in USD value.

Key-USD = Stable

Key-Ref = Unstable / Keys rising

Ref-USD = Unstable / Ref falling

Okay.. If the price of Keys is stable between 1.25-1.40 USD, and the amount of Ref you need for a single Key is rising, then the price of Ref in USD is falling.

The price of ref is falling to sum everything up. If it wouldn't fall we would have a big hole where everybody could make a ton of profit.

I misinterpreted your previous comment, since Ref -USD wasn't listed. I understand and agree with what you're saying.

I'm can't explain things like these in the english language ;_;

Actually, if one of the factors above isn't stable the keyprice in Ref is falling or rising.

Edit: Added this to my summary.

Why would refined metal all of a sudden be dropping in price? And no, you can't attribute it to idling considering the fact that people have been idling for a very long time on multiple accounts, and the amount of refined being put into the economy has not suddenly increased psychotically for keys to nearly double in price.

Not even that. Long, from what I seen, sells keys for real world money and the price of keys in money is a completely different subject than the price of keys in metal.

That being said, the price of keys in money hasn't changed much (I think the average going price is around $1.35-$1.40). Raising key prices in metal would barely affect Long except for his bp value which nobody cares about.

Seriously, how many of you actually think Long cares about his BP value?

all the poor orphans

Everybody who desperately searches for arguments against a keysuggestion which is rasing the price.

They can't find enough counterproof so they simply take false facts which are completely irrelevant.

They act irrational. That's the short of it all.

If they see someone in the comments that isn't saying "lower key prices now!" they hit the dislike button. If someone shows them what they are saying (in this case, me showing the irrational group their own words of "lower key prices now!") they hit the dislike button.

To be honest, I could write a 5 page essay on counter-arguing why key prices, at this moment in time, cannot fall in price. But I won't because I'd be wasting my time on something so trivial.

Hey look, a negative score on my comment.

My point has been proven.

Even if you're right, you still sound like a huge douchebag, Mopey.

I'm just tired of people spouting nonsense in key suggestions and the worst part of it is they never seem to learn. If people were civil in key suggestions, I wouldn't post these comments because I wouldn't have to.

Besides, do you think I care what people have to say in key suggestions? I really don't because a majority of those who get a million likes in their comments are the same people who keep nagging about how keys were 2.33 ref two years ago. I've heard old people complain less about inflation than people complain about key prices going up on this site.

Go ahead and dislike my comment - it doesn't make you any more right and it doesn't make me any less wrong. It just shows how stubborn you are if you dislike and don't change anything about your thought process.

Why do you care?

Because it pains me to see people act so close-minded. When people act like this, they refuse to change the way they think and the way they act, which helps nobody.

I understand they hate key prices going up and I understand they hate Long, but they don't have to act the way they do towards either.

blah blah blah

insert comment here: "long218 is a price manipulator, owns a ton of keys, downvote, backpack.tf is bad now"

let's see if we as a community can be mature and objective about this as well.

Hey guys, keys are dropping!

Look at this chart to prove it: http://i.imgur.com/vXzhKXM.png

But seriously long, please don't use an unnumbered, scaled-in graph to back your proof. It could be saying keys have risen to 2.66 ref and be from 2011 from all we know, and it certainly doesn't help. The rest of the proof is solid, I suppose, but I just don't see why you chose to include the graph.

How does tf2finance being at 4.14 refined warrant 4.22 refined? Answer: it doesnt. Downvote.

If Keys don't sell for more than 4.11 Ref the average wouldn't be over 4.11 Ref.

When there are alot of succesful sales at 4.11+ Ref, the average is rising over 4.11.

Your logic is broken.

The average is 4.13 refined, and if a weapon is .05 scrap, then why does this need to be raised to 4.22 refined?! Even if you rounded it off, it would round down to 4.1 refined, not up to 4.2 refined.

At the moment, the average is above the high end price. That makes no sense.

Not by enough however to warrant a price increase, being at 4.13 refined means that a few are probably being sold for an extra weapon, but that most definitely doesn't warrant a price increase of a full scrap.

But the price isn't increasing by a full scrap. We are making the middle price closer to the average than it currently is. 4.05 is further away from 4.13 than 4.11, fairly obviously.

Why the frog is my comment still getting disliked and his comment liked?

Oh, right. I'm supporting the keysuggestion + I showed that his logic is broken.

Our community is still awesome.

/sarcasm

I don't see how you disproved my logic at all, if anything it's the other way around. There's also the fact that now you're just complaining.

Tell me then how 4.15 Ref is between 4 and 4.11.

I think Bacon is trying to say that If TF2finace had keys @ higher than 4.16 ref, than it would be logical to round to 4.22 ref. But right now it is at 4.14, which does not show an entire scrap increase. Either way, it seems silly to get this upset over a small change in price. Perhaps we should be angry with not only the people on Outpost selling @ 4.22, but also the people who are willing to pay that ridiculous price.

His argument is irrelevant.

As I said, TF2 finance wouldn't be over 4.11 Ref if there aren't any trades happening at 4.22 Ref.

I listed above that 6 people added me in less than 5 minutes to pay my price of 4.22 Ref each key. There are already a ton of trades happening at 4.22++, but the majority is between 4-4.22.

Got added by 6 people in less than 5 minutes. Price: 4.22 Ref.

I can't tell if you're serious or not. How would tf2finance being at 4.14 support the current range of 4.00-4.11? It isn't even within that range, whereas it is right in the middle of a 4.00-4.22 range.

I believe his 4.22 refined high end comes from the successful 4.22 refined sellers he provided.

any specific reason this is still open, gold?

Well, it seems tf2finance dropped it back down to 4.11.

... which is the exact midpoint of the suggested range

I'm going to wait to see if Finance stays at 4.11 for the next day or not. If another admin wants to accept or close this new price, then he or she can.

There's a female admin? Which one?

cleverpun and shen

EDIT: and brad pitt

"How does tf2finance being at 4.14 refined warrant 4.22 refined? Answer: it doesnt. Downvote."

How the hell does this comment have a score of 56?

This is my answer

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9420985

I hate you, 562 keys in your backpack, but you are right. I don´t want to do this, but... upvote

I feel he's quite arrogant about it sometimes.

Sometimes?

Why doesn't everyone realize that the value of keys isn't going up, the value of metal is going down. It is very easy to run programs that create several sandboxes that enable you to run like 50 different tf2 idles. A friend of mine makes like 25 refined a week or more depending on the drops he gets. Many people do this, and it's killing the market, especially for keys. If the prices were lowered based on community opinion instead of facts, people would use the near infinite refined to buy the keys and sell for either usd or at higher prices. Then, people would start selling keys a few scrap higher (like they are now). People would buy, and the sellers would keep pushing a little bit higher each time untill we were BACK to this point. Opinions/community consensus can't drive an economy, that doesn't make any sense. The key sellers only want refined, and the key buyers have so much refined they couldn't care less about it so they'll pay whatever we demand.

That is not changing the amount of refined in the economy. it gets taken out by people who use them to craft things. FFS this is the stupidest argument there is.

There are not crazy amounts of metal being injected into the games daily. The it is a stable number that may fluctuate a few hundred every few days.

The problem with key prices is the feedback loop between autpost, here, and tf2 finance. The key resellers look to here and add a scrap or more to the price. This causes the average price on tf2 finance to go up. Then the people who make suggestions here see that and gather proof that they sell for a range that has that as the average then the cycle starts over again.

Who the heck crafts hats or anything now a days? Key actually have a use, uncrating for unusuals...etc

Crafting if anything makes you LOSE metal, why craft for aomething who's value will be less. Metal is free! You ifle you get metal, keys are 2.5$ and us consumed regularly...

What you do not realize is that people still craft hats with metal and refined.

But compared to the amount of people that uncrate...metal stays in the 'mannconomy' for a while, compared to keys which are regularly comsumed.

Dont even get me started on people who use sandbox and idle for a weekly 25ref.

So we should have the prices for keys inflate to such an insane price that only rich players can afford to buy keys via metal? Is that what you are saying? Each and EVERY SINGLE TIME someone mentions an idle account, it is an excuse for prices to remain high. I am friends with one of these idlers, and even HE thinks these key prices are bullshit.

Your remarks on why anyone would craft metal or hats highlights the stupidity the market is going through right now, when even doing one thing that is not what traders want you to do incites their wrath. Why is it that we have to wince, to brace ourselves. to whine about losing the value in our backpacks, OVER A COUPLE OF FUCKING HATS OR THREE FUCKING REFINED? So you lost 1 dollar off of refined for crafting a hat. BIG FUCKING DEAL. The world is not going to end because of it.

I know for sure that I am not alone in my thoughts that there is something wrong about this. There is casual trading, and there is taking this economics thing WAY too fucking seriously. The key sellers are taking this issue too seriously.

It royally pisses me off that there are those that worry about losing a damn dollar in their backpacks.

Backpack.tf simply reflects the price of keys (i do not know about manipulation...etc if true or not but they always have a massive amount of proof to back it up so...)

Yes, you friend thinks it's "high" and i think it is as well. But think about this, metal is "free" Leave your account idled using sandbox, get a massive amount of ref, trade for keys, sell keys for USD. Thats basically making FREE money from simply having your computer turned on.

Because of this "free" metal Idlers (your friend might not do this, but there are probably thousands who do) do not mind paying the 5ref for a key! and a seller wont sell it cheap when there are assholes who WILL buy for 5ref.

Steam needs to do something with how the game works or else it will ruin the experience for newer players.

Please, im not saying idling is bad, heck everyone wants some metal right? But the amount of people that have 25+ accounts idling to make money ruin the game experience for everyone. Enough said.

I apologize if i offended or made you angry with any of my remarks earlier >_<

It will not let me respond to you directly, Derpeh, so I have to resond using my own comment.

Idle accounts never were a problem until October, when the site gained traction and became popular. Idling has been around since the inception of the item drop, and it only magically became an issue... around October.

Trading is not fun anymore, because you have this vicious feedback loop between this site and Outpost where it has become self sustaining, and essentially, keys have devolved to where you cannot profit off of them in terms of USD or in game.

Backpack.tf does more than reflect the price, it ESTABLISHES the price.

You need to have a reality check if you think these idlers want to pay 5 refined for a key. You have no idea how incorrect that assumption is.

Lulz. The odds to make win by unboxing are even worsen then those crafting, especially when using crates over series 25 containing the new cancer effects.

Metal and keys are kinda useless when you use them. They are currency not more

Derel, there is no evidence that the newer crates have only the newer effects.

Actually, there is. I can link you to the forums post, the /r/tf2trade PSA, or the fact that multiple people I know unbox only old crates. Infact, the Unusual I own right now, bought from the unboxer, was unboxed from an old crate. Mr. Jew also uncrated 200 crates recently, all new: He uncrated 3 Unusuals I believe, but all with new effects.

Upvote, whatever the final price is going to be we should accelerate the process not drag it out.

What a dumb idea

He is referring to the article that the owner of tf2finance wrote.

Here is the article if you feel like reading it: http://tf2finance.com/2013_03/

Listen, the trade price can not go beyond 7.33 - 8.33 depending on $ price of ref in secondary market at that time (its $0.35 now). That amount of ref is equal to buying a key at Mann co. That's the barrier. We should allow this to get to its max sooner rather than later to save the pain's in the trading market as well as further discussion about it. Once there, the price will roll up and down but it will be stable.

Its why I thought it would be good to go right to 8 ref in one shot. Then let it come down. The effect in the end would be like economic stimulation. Holders of many keys would be scrambling to trade their keys for stable items because the next day their keys will be worth a little less.

This vote has created - ☣ Long218 ☢

Based on the events occurred with the - * Strange Sapper *, for the last, week. Regardless of the vote. The result can be told in advance.

By this vote will be approved.

I want one to senseless karma on this site. therefore endorse. vote up

Please do not mention voting when it comes to promos, everyone has a biased opinion. I can probably open a trade downgrading the price of keys with no proof and nothing and i can probably guess that ill get a massive amount of upvotes.

You are lying to yourself if you believe people vote 100% in honesty

My thought was a little different. but I will not develop it here.

it was about the time dude!! i sell for 4,33 ref 1.5 weeks now!

upvote.

Thanks long218! I tried to make keys Higher But I guess I didn't put "Enough" Links. +Vote!

theres just tons of people who sell and buy keys for 4ref on trade servers... also if you ask me 4ref is great price coz you can simple divide it into quarter where 0.25key => 1ref, which speed things up when you trade for keys

Long218, just give it a break.

People may think, well a few scraps won't help him.

He made the price rise about how much, a rec?

he has 562 Keys. Multiply that by .33. Thats around 185 Ref.

doesn't mean a damn thing when I don't sell keys for metal.

Cough cough, key price goes up = metal price go down (money)

More profit

you do realize that key price actually never go up in dollar value right ?

only metal is losing dollar value.

so doesn't matter what key cost in metal it will still only be $1.3-$1.35 in real money

Then why do you always seem to be the first person up to post a new key suggestion? I'm not accusing you of anything i'm just curious.

idk, I guess the first time I made key suggestion people raged at me and it turn me on I guess.

YOU need to realize something, people like you keep saying stuff like that (well the metal is actually going down) THEN WHY ARE YOU ONLY CHANGING THE KEY PRICE TO GO UP? All the stranges are the same price in metal, hats ect.

When people say that metal is going down they are referring to its value in usd. This is a big reason why key prices are a big deal is that there a currency and as they are currently going up in ref value but not in usd value it causes inflation on the economy so everything is getting more expensive but not from a ref standpoint. Even then items that are priced in keys are going up due to keys rising price.

You're like the birds from Finding Nemo but instead of "Mine mine mine" It's "Finance finance finance."

MEANWHILE, AT BACKPACK.TF VOTING:

Holy crap Long. Who has time to vote on over 500 suggestions.

Takes me half a day to buy a full stock of keys at 4.11, takes 30 minutes to an hour to sell out at 4.22.

welllll goooood 4 uuuuuuuuu

Is it too farfetched to hypothesize that the devaluation of Refined has reduced confidence in traders to use it to convert Keys to Metal and vice-versa? If so, the difference between Keys being sold for Metal and Keys not being sold for Metal would be very large, where Keys being sold for Metal would be on the low end of the ratio.

Think about how much Refined Metal has been devalued in comparison to Keys. If the value of Metal is indeed decreasing, all items should see an increase of Metal value. Unfortunately, this is not the case. No other item that is more commonly traded for Metal has seen any of the price increases the Key has been getting even though the value of Metal has been decreasing. We can safely say that Metal is only being devalued in comparison to Keys.

As Keys go up, and Metal goes down, the prices of items more commonly bought with Keys go up and those commonly bought with Metal go down; but only when comparing between the two currencies. When we see people stating that the value of Keys hasn't changed at all, only the value of Metal is decreasing, and those who say that the value of Keys are indeed increasing; to say that either statement is true or false would be wrong.

To understand this concept, we have expose the possibility that theTF2 economy is a dualconomy, meaning there are two economies trying to co-exist. As you can guess, the two economies I'm referring to are that of Metal and Keys. Just for this theory, if we can imagine that there are indeed two different economies, if we see the price fluctuations in the Key economy we would be able to see that it has been fairly stable. The same could be said for the Metal economy. Hats are still 1.33 Refined Metal and Bill's are still 8 Keys and have been for a very long time.

Only when the two economies clash, do we see unstable prices. This is uncannily similar to comparing exchange rates between countries. Internally, the Dollar is very stable in the U.S., but globally it's impossible that it won't see some devaluation in a different economy. So what does this have to do with the TF2 economy? People tend to think of Metal as pennies, nickles, dimes and quarters when dealing with Keys. If the dualconomy exists, then thinking that Metal is change for Keys is a very dangerous concept. When people refer to the two different currencies, they should be comparing them between the Peso and the Dollar. But because all of this happens in the singularity that is TF2, it's understandable that traders would see both Metal and Keys as part of the same economy.

If the prices of Keys and everything bought in Keys are inflating because the prices of Metal and everything bought in Metal are deflating when using them to buy Keys within the dualconomy, why would anyone want to sell their Keys for a constantly devaluing currency? Going back to real world economics, what's the number one reason why people would want to retire in a different country? It is all about the exchange rates. If people could get more with their Dollar, they could do more with their Dollar. If traders can get more and do more with Keys than with Metal, it's no surprise Metal is so constantly devalued.

With the pace that Metal is being devalued, profit off of currency exchanging needs to be done quickly before it takes more Metal to buy the Key back than what you sold it for. This type of business model is very successful with a large inventory of Keys because you can sell for high and buy for cheap at the same time and any losses can be quickly gained back by selling reserved stocks of Keys when a new price emerges. It is very cumbersome work only for those who have recently converted from profiting off from the Metal economy as it is expected because they are not moving as many and as quickly, again only reaffirming how much more you can do with Keys than with Metal.

If it's so difficult to get to the point to have enough Keys in your backpack after profiting in the Metal economy to make a profit off of the cat and mouse chase of currency exchange, is the time spent to get to that point worth it? Is it worth it to get involved in the currency exchange market, to sell and buy Keys with Metal and Metal with Keys? It's up to the individual to decide what they would do with their time, what role Keys and Metal play in the economy/economies. As a trader, I'd rather my Keys and Metal not intermingle. It has come to the point where I must not use Metal to buy Keys or sell my Keys for Metal. I would rather keep Metal and Keys in their own respective economies until they stop drifting apart further away into their own entities and start merging back into one.

dat comment lol

i deleted it after 5 seconds of putting up. it is too long and fuck the polees

oh bad word, you will get a warning wait for it.

You might be interested in: http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/546-my-stance-on-reason-for-increase-in-key-prices/

read already =b

Upvote

I regret nothing

That was the last thing mattje had said. Now, please form a line to leave your dues. The casket was left open for the public.

disliking my comment will stop 4.22 buyers

believe me

you will save the whole tf2 economy by sharing your opinion

believe me

I disliked it because it contributed nothing

I think it's funny that mine is getting a little more hate than yours. :P

#swag

Keep the circlejerk going.

I don't think you know what that word means. It doesn't really work when there are so many disagreements.

we allow the community to post counterproof

post deleted, my work is done here

[url]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/6/6f/Scout_no01.wav[/url]

Summary of Keysuggestions.

Lowering the price:

- Persons love the suggester because he is doing a "good thing" for the economy.

- TF2 finance does not count as counterproof, although it is showing the average keyprice.

- 10 links of proof are enough to accept a keysuggestion. (Mind of voters)

- Persons who want that the price drops will upvote, no matter how bad the proof is.

- Admins/Mods will close the suggestion, because the proof is bad and nearly all upvotes are based on opinion.

Raising the price:

- Persons hate the suggester because he is doing a "bad thing" for the economy.

- TF2 finance does not count as proof, because it's showing the average sellingprice.

- 60 links of proof are still not enough to accept the a keysuggestion. (Mind of voters)

- Persons who don't want that the price rise will downvote, no matter how good the proof is.

- Admins/Mods will accept the suggestion, because the proof is good and nearly all downvotes are based on opinion.

Other facts:

- backpack.tf is not manipulating the prices, the buyers who want that the price drops are manipulating it.

- Upvotes on lower prices do not count anymore, most of them are based on the opinion of mad people.

- Downvotes on higher prices do not count anymore, most of them are based on the opnion of mad people.

- The market won't crash till Valve does something with keys and/or metal.

- The keyprice will continue rising because most persons are paying the prices of OP-profitwhores.

- Admins/Mods look through all comments + the proof. They wouldn't accept a price which wasn't right.

- The price can't be {x} Ref if the average price is {x} + {y} Ref. (Y = 0.01 to 0.11 Ref)

- The amount of keys in the backpack of the suggester doesn't mean anything.

- While Keys are increasing in Refprice, Ref is decreasing in USD price. The argument that the suggester is doing the suggestion for his own benefit is irrelevant. Profit = 0.

- Persons who support a suggestion which is raising the keyprice will be downvoted, even if their arguments and/or lists of facts are good and true.

- Persons who are against a suggestion which is raising the keyprice will be upvoted, even if their arguments and/or lists of facts are bad and false.

This summary covers the past 90 suggestions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer for the question: Why is Ref droping?

Factor 1: Key-USD = Stable

Factor 2: Key-Ref = Unstable / Keys rising

Factor 3: Ref-USD = Unstable / Ref falling

If the price of Keys is stable between 1.25-1.40 USD, and the amount of Ref you need for a single Key is increasing, then the price of Ref in USD is decreasing.

The price of ref is droping to sum everything up. If it doesn't fall we would have a big hole where everybody could make a ton of profit with RL-money.

Just remember of the price of $0.45 per Ref. 5 x 0.45 = 2.25 USD! That's why the price of Ref in USD is droping.

Sidenote: If one of the factors above isn't stable the keyprice in Ref would be rising or droping.

~ Volpiii

Are you just going to copy and paste that into every key suggestion from now on?

Yup, but I'll also add every new type of fact/comment and edit it.

you should look up the word "fact" since a lot of the facts you list are not actually facts, just theories.

for example:

it's not a fact that backpack.tf isn't influencing prices.

it's not a fact that long doesn't profit off this. he raised the price of keys, lowered the price of buds, sold keys for $s, bought buds for $s, raised prices of buds, bought keys, etc. - with the amount of keys/buds we're talking about it's actually pretty real profit there.

ref is unstable because keys prices are rising, not the other way around. price of ref is dropping because price of ref per key is going up.

Nope, my facts are proven by the childish acting of community.

I support the suggestion, my comment gets downvoted.

You are against the the suggestion, your comment gets upvoted.

Also:

- backpack.tf isn't influencing the prices, it is only reporting them. If keybuyers buy for more than the suggested price it's their own fault.

- Are you serious? The price of Buds and Keys in USD are stable, and you can usually get a ton of profit by RL-money trading.

"ref is unstable because keys prices are rising, not the other way around. price of ref is dropping because price of ref per key is going up."

This is what I said, just in a passive way.

I think quite a bit of this is true. Most of the people saying that rising key prices will "crash the economy" also happen to have zero keys and about 3 ref. Huh.

lol, refined isn't lowering in value.

notice how I can still buy many different hats with 1.33 refined, and how I can craft a familiar fez for four ref, but key prices keep changing. I think keys shouldn't be used as currency because they're so inconsistant.

>lol, refined isn't lowering in value.

>notice how I can still buy many different hats with 1.33 refined

that's because craft hats have a crafting recipe, causing their price to remain constant. No one is going to pay more than 3 refined for a pair of craft hats because it would be a waste of metal. If refined wasn't devaluing, you would still be able to buy a Bill's hat with 22 refined. The truth is, it now costs 33 refined to buy a Bill's hat, and not because Bill's are rising.

full explanation here: http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/9-refined-metal-is-its-value-decreasing/?p=46

what about low tier stranges? they need keys to unboxed, and are priced in metal, why is there no increase there?

Could you give an example of a strange so I have a better idea of what you mean?

It's because people are opening those in mass for either an unusual or a higher sought after strange. Many people even give low tier stranges away rather than get metal for them because of disappointment or they value their time more than trying to sell a strange that most don't want and are a low value.

Quite often if the strange weapon is useful, fun or popular the price starts to rise again after the crate is harder to get. Another thing to consider and keep in mind is that you can't craft another strange by crafting multiple low tier stranges while you can craft 2 clean low tier cosmetic items. This makes strange weapons that most people don't use, really cheap despite what they cost to uncrate. Even more so than low tier hats that are chained to refined.

but they are priced in metal, they would go up by defalt, IF metal is "decreasing"

It's a flaw in the system used here. Most stranges that are used often and are from crates that don't drop are in fact rising.

Look at my summary.

Downvoting. Why?

Because keys are one of the most traded items, and probably second most prefered currency, so to speak.

one other reason, voting on a higher price is to rapid. you don't really stop, you just keep voting a higher price 'because outpost proves it'. Point being, don't shit some 33~ outpost links on here with a 1 day break, try to atleast let other people 'prove' what has to be done.

Goddamn it this website needs a limit to whether someone is allowed to suggest something depending on how many of the items he owns that was suggested to change

The amount of keys Long has in his BP has nothing to do with his outstanding job of finding good proofs.

Anyone can suggest anything. Some people make suggestion with 0 item in the inventory while they have like 100 on an alt account. There should be a limit for prices cant be changed for 1 month and thats it.

It isn't just Outpost proving it. It is also TF2Finace.

That tracks almost all trades, including severs, for trades involving keys.

Stop using the "Outpost shoudn't count, you need to take severs into consideration" excuse when TF2Finance provides proof for servers.

Allow me to point out something.

Keys are only going up because fewer and fewer people are doing key to metal/ Metal to key transactions. Common sense, people. The higher in price an item gets, as in real life, the less people will want to buy that item, as in real life. Thanks to the efforts made by key sellers, fewer of these transactions are being made.

Also, here is some light reading:

:http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3089590

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3091497

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3091144

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3089072

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3091887

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3091605

All past topics concerning the recent events that have been going on, and the vocal displeasure made by those who aren't a follower of this website (and those who are that are sick and tired of the song and dance routine). A new thread was made today related to this topic:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3096028

It needs to be noted that the rest of the TF2 Community is starting to question the legitimacy of the website.

To those who are wondering why their delightful comments regarding the usual economic standbys are being hidden/given a negative score, it's not because people are trolling you, it is because people are getting tired of the same old song and dance routine. Same for people upvoting the suggestions, as it is usually the same people commenting about it.

I think at this point, it's too late. Backpack is hated in the TF2 Community, just like the Spreadsheet. I'm not joking either, I was in a trade server last night and when someone said that they're selling keys for 4 ref, 2 people insulted that trader in a distasteful way on the chat. And the worst part is that they blame this site and called it "f##pack.tf". It's getting out of hand.

That's pretty much all I have to say at this matter. I'm not going to bother explaining economics or anything again, but I will say the same thing I've said in the beginning; the method of pricing things based solely on proof and not considering the opinion of the general populous is very faulty and will lead to backlash. It's worse considering that this site is know as the "Community Driven" site, but the community has no say on anything (Votes and opinions don't matter). In essence, this site the same thing as the spreadsheet, but most of the work is done by others (And by others, I mean a majority of suggestions are made by the same people who have rich backpacks, are top contributors, and in the case of what Long did, are quite rude and childish at times.) This can be seen in a very negative light.

Not all of the top contributors of this site are rich, or even do that much trading. If you want a laugh, look at my Outpost profile.

Backpack can't do anything about that sort of criticism, because it can't manipulate the prices. If we left prices low when they'd gone up that'd be way worse than Long making too many key suggestions.

exactly. i hope base64 is keeping historical data on key trading volume. i think that would be very enlightening.

so as i pointed out in the last suggestion - the volume of key sales in underwhelming and the smaller the volume the more the likelihood that the mean is less and less meaningful.

[url]http://tf2finance.com/2013_03/[/url]

w0lf already posted this, but base64 had showed me his article in chat earlier today. If you would like to read it and talk about it, then please do.

To the point that base64 makes at the end of the article, that he says it is individual preference, and also stating that "nothing is broken"...

Why does it feel that the exact opposite is true?

trading volume of keys to metal is too low for these prices to be changing so often. if trading volume goes up the price is more meaningful.

http://backpack.tf/classifieds/search/5021/6/0

4 ref galore.

I added kingstone.

he declined my add

Oh, it's the same guy for 3/4 lol.

I would decline too

http://tf2finance.com/2013_03/

THANK YOU BASED GOD.

The below part is terrible.

This looks like a perfect argument, but the logical flaw lies with “Rinse and Repeat”.

Let’s try to expand it.

1. Someone sees price at Backpack.tf at 2.66 ref and sells his Key on Outpost.

2. Outpost sellers buy them all at 2.66 ref

3. Outpost sellers post trades of 2.77 ref and successfully sell all

4. Backpack.tf records it as evidence and raises suggested price to 2.77 ref

5. Outpost sellers tries to sell at 2.88 AND Someone sees price at Backpack.tf at 2.77 ref and sells his Key.

8. Outpost sellers buy all available ones at 2.77 ref

9. Outpost sellers post trades of 2.88 ref and successfully sell all

10. Backpack.tf records it as evidence and raises suggested price to 3 ref

11. Outpost sellers sell at 3.11 ref

12. Rinse and Repeat

There is a major flaw at step 5. Why would anyone buy at 2.88 if there are people selling at 2.77?

Assume there no one who buys at 2.88 when 2.77 is available. Let’s say 5 sellers at 2.88 and 5 sellers at 2.77.

Quantity demand at 2.88 includes those demanded at 2.77. If 2.88 doesn’t sell now that means Quantity supplied = (5+5) = 10 but Quantity demanded = 5.

Now, the resellers buy the 5 Keys at 2.77 and resells at 2.88. Quantity Supplied at 2.88 is still (5+5) = 10, and Quantity demanded is still 5.

"There is a major flaw at step 5. Why would anyone buy at 2.88 if there are people selling at 2.77?"

Maybe I misunderstood you. But I am going to assume I am not.

This is why people pay 1 scrap higher when there are available sellers.

1) Buyers are in a rush.

2) Keys are fluctuating so much that at some point they will be 2.88 anyways, so it isnt like they wasted a scrap

3) Maybe they think 2.88 is fair

4) I've heard buyers say that they honestly don't care about the scrap (at least they didn't until keys got this high)

--"There is a major flaw at step 5. Why would anyone buy at 2.88 if there are people selling at 2.77?"

The problem once again is this. You can do a lot of things on outpost that you cannot do on trade servers and vice versa, On a trade server after sitting on there for 8 hours I can probably find someone selling keys for 3 ref each. That happened to me last week. That would never happen on outpost.

The positives on outpost are hardly the "deals". Its normally convenience.

If backpack.tf says keys are 2.77ref, outpost sellers essentially charge you an additional "convenience" scrap bringing it to 2.88 ref. I could sit on a trade server and depending on my luck, could have found a key for 2.77 within 30mins to hours~. Outpost is the place for the impatient. It is nice to get in and get what you want. The problem isn't that 2.77 isn't available. It is that you won't find it on outpost, and suggesters only use outpost evidence.

Maybe I went way too far off topic, but I don't see how there is a problem with step 5.

thank god for people like you who don't have GIANT pucating tumor in there head that tells them to kill cats and raise key prices

We should make a drinking game that every time a key suggestion is suggested someone takes a drink. You be dead in a week. ~~TEHEE.~~

After reading all the rage comments, I just have to go with it. I'm posting a suggestion later....I feel sorry now.

My suggestion.

Backfired.

Got to try until it sticks, right, right?

last one sticked already but got closed because I made fun of other people and being rude overall

Now Long, what have we learned?

Not to be condescending and petulant?

Upvoted simply because there is no counter proof.

Perhaps it's time for you to take a break from backpack.tf champ.

Not only are you constantly egging people on, provoking abuse that looks bad on the site, but you are also contributing to the sites reputation going down the toilet, regardless of whether or not it is justified.

Take a break from chasing a virtual badge (top contributor or whatever), let the site regain some reputation and then come back and contribute in a positive manner that isn't a defamation of the site.

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9374280[/url] - inSpire - [4.11 ref in current range] - ok

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9403339[/url] - pamyurin - [4.11 ref in current range] - ok

[url]http://redd.it/1al2bp[/url] - timkr23 - [4.11 ref in current range] - ok

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9394351[/url] - Asger! [IDLING] - [4.11 ref in current range] - have only 4.11 ref, and 4 keys (24.5 hrs / 51 hrs of TF2, interesting)

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9355877[/url] - Skyropio - [4.11 ref in current range] - only 5 ref in his bp

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9331737[/url] - BLAZE - [4.11 ref in current range] "I can buy : 0" Bumped: 51 minutes ago, 3.66 metal in his bp, 10 new key

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9386988[/url] - alkenrinnstet - 4.22 - ok

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9406275[/url] - JerBear - [4.11 ref in current range] 4.66 ref in his bp, 9 new keys

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9263359[/url] - Indefatigable|REALTALK - [4.11 ref in current range] - only 0.55 metal in his bp! no new key, 9 keys on the top of his bp

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9368123[/url] - Stache (IDLING) - [4.11 ref in current range] - ok

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9409786[/url] - -Lazlie- 5 days to B'day :3 - Trade done, [4.11 ref in current range], 2 new keys

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9301076[/url] - STEVE | RSP/Round Robin - [4.11 ref in current range] - ok

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9342004[/url] - Sweetie Belle - [4.11 ref in current range] - ok

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9274281[/url] - Reflector - [4.11 ref in current range] - ok

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9359057[/url] - PandaPaws - 4.22 - Have only 1 ref in his bp! (have 2 another buying thread with 4, and 4.11 ref)

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9212328[/url] - YN | ChiefInStaff - [4.11 ref in current range] - Have only 2.33 ref! from them 1.33 are new, and a new upgrade to premium gift

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9324831[/url] - Docks - [4.11 ref in current range] - ok

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9346329[/url] - Control Z - [4.11 ref in current range] - Trade done, 0 new keys, 0 new item, but a strange widowmaker on the top of his bp

Sellers successfully at 4.11+:

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/6962413[/url] - Fang. - Current selling price 5 ref, too old to prove the validity of 4.33 sells. I wouldn't count it as a proof

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9148728[/url] - Rafe - no new ref, have only 1.77 ref on the top of his bp (current selling price 4.33, probably too old to provide 4.22 sellings)

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9407297[/url] - GIGABYTE - Trade done, 8.33 new ref (If I consider it as 2 sold keys, then 4.15, so it could be ok)

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9252173[/url] - lcg400 - Have bunch of new metals, keys, hats, and miscs. Im not sure, but maybe.

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9345463[/url] - James[Key Banking] - keybanker, "I ask for a fee of one reclaimed upon your first purchase or sale"

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9390621[/url] - =PB P= Robby - out of stock, no new ref, plenty of ref in his bp (2. page) not sure where those refs come from

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9378064[/url] - JaGaRz Ranger - out of stock, looks ok

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9409145[/url] - LostCause - Yeah, it is ok.

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9409259[/url] - ???(?????? - Trade done, "had 28 keys", atm. have 29 keys, and 6 ref

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9359697[/url] - Informerius - 0 keys (had 2 in stock), 0 new ref, (16.44ref on the top of his bp)

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9354123[/url] - ??????? - no new ref, plenty of refs on the top of his bp

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9309158[/url] - Fanou Tou Aloniou - Current Stock: (0), last bump: 51 minutes ago, "keybank bot"

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9370745[/url] - hippityhip - plenty of new ref, 1 new key (seems ok)

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9153351[/url] - Sock. - Keys in stock: 0, last bump: 10 hours ago, no new ref, 0 ref in his bp (+1untradeable ref)

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9317445[/url] - Awesomeness - "Current keys in stock: 0", last bump: 12 hours ago, bunch of ref on the top of his bp

No one cares about proof anymore. They just want us to falsely report lower prices so they can take advantage of unwitting sellers who blindly follow our pricelist.

Not sure if sarcasm or...

Read the other comments. Look at the scores of the recent key suggestions. People are just upset at the moment.

Anyone here selling keys for 4.22 or less? Pls add me I need to buy about 20 keys. K Thanks. :)

funny how people dislike your comment when they can do 1.55 ref profit by selling their keys bought at 2.66 ref

[url]http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/522-keys-their-prices/?p=5342[/url]

How many of overall Keys are actually selling for Metal? If Keys are more often selling for other items that are more frequently bought with Keys, the increase of Key prices in Metal can not be directly attributed to Keys selling for Metal.

Long when it comes to keys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vdSvmPKRMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPchfdrDo-s GUYS ITS DINNER TIME.

I hate you Long, but I'm inclined to upvote because I know it'll be passed.

T_T

Downvoters :3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzpndHtdl9A

Just saying, it's not just about the game... it's also money

first of all, Dat voice,

second of all:

I'm not mad, I just want people to open there eyes to the problem.

In game there are 1,300,000 ref / 510,000 = 2.55 ref per key? Anyway, I'm fine with this raise in price. Let the good times roll.

Keys in game =/= keys for sale for metal. Furthermore, since keys are such a volatile tool (The average life span is 7 weeks. There's backpacks that have not been updated since 2008 by stats.tf. Therefore, a perishable good such as keys that is both introduced and consumed rapidly cannot be considered accurately tracked. Compared with, say, the number of a particular Genuine item after the game has been released, since that number cannot increase, but will seem to as backpacks are updated) that is a very flawed statement. There are around 3/4 the number of Tuxxes as Buds; does that mean that, as many Tux owners are trying to delude themselves into, Tuxxes are all for trade for buds, or that they can be traded at that ratio?

THEY'RE RISING AGAIN D: NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s

Exactly! :D

Had that false hope thinking they were gonna stabilize and stop at 4 ref.

see it makes no sence. i understand that ref is going down in USD for some stupid reason. that means everything other than keys and tickets are also losing real value.

That's why the metal prices are rising. When you multiply the two together you should (hypothetically) get the ticket/key real money prices.

If you truly wonder why the keys are going up, I suggest you read this study by Base64: http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/546-my-stance-on-reason-for-increase-in-key-prices/

it's very well written and researched. base64 knows his shit - most of it very convincing. i would like him to add one more data point to overlay over his graph. unique visits to backpack.tf. i believe you guys tripled your unique visits just after halloween. it would give some credence to the feedback loop problem which he dismisses on a technicality.

I suggest you post on the thread and if base64 is interested, he'll ask Bad for the info himself, I bet.

I call him Bad too.

You call yourself God too, don't you?

god in my dick, what up

your dick, I presume?

nope.avi; nice try though.

Keys are just a currency now.. There's no point in unboxing cause there's no way to profit from it anymore cause the item you unbox is nowhere near the cost of the key in metal, which basically ruins the gamble. (Unless you unbox an unusual/salvaged crate which then is still too slim of a chance)

Actually, all new crates have a small period of time where their contents are guaranteed profit, so hoarding keys is a good move if you farm new crates the day they come out

so, does that mean we can also sorta blame the mvm update because since then stranges went down hard(the stranges that have botkiller forms now)? I can give at least the example of a strange scattergun since it was 5 keys before and now it went down to a refined.

That went down cause it was in a new crate

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9427303 #justsayin

Here we go again....

We have never stopped.

I still don't get how people like Long218 don't care about ruining market as far as they get "points", it's a shame

"If not me then be it another"

Ok ill take those conditions

He's not actually ruining the market.

He actually loses rep. I don't think he is actually gaining any rep by suggesting on keys.

I apologize if this is a tired question, but is there a general consensus on a cool down period for price suggestions?

Just curious.

There isn't really, but several users of the site (including myself) have said that a 2 day waiting period might be a good idea (that'd be for accepted suggestions, though).

I would personally disagree with that: What if a suggestion gets passed incorrectly, as one that is not truly representative of the market? How could that be corrected?

That's unlikely to happen with key suggestions, given the amount of discussion on each one.

Two days doesn't seem like a long enough period to me. I'm a bit biased though as I'm one of those who are under the impression that prices are indirectly affected by pricelists and suggestions due to predictable human behavior, despite everyone saying otherwise.

If they froze price suggestions on just keys for a month and the prices still fluctuated then that would be enough "proof" for me.

exactly,but no.They keep the circle going and nothing else.

yeah, that sounds like a good idea imo

Question:

1- If ref is going down, why are stranges still so cheap? Why have even the* commons not risen?

2- I love how I could make 40 alts, "trade" keys at a higher price BOOM proof

3- any proof that shows sales bellow the current range is not counted as proof "outlier" when so are the higher amount of metal trades, but they are accepted as proof, baised,

4- key metal trade ratio - nuff said

not trying to argue, just wondering

Because rich get richer others go and fuck themselves. Tf2 economy was always corrupeted. This site is just a legal mean to sceam people. ( Not saying the creators of this site does that but at least dozens of scammers use the method you meantioned)

You even don't know what is scam, scam is not give the items/money promised.

1- Because stranges aren't a currency.

2- I have never once seen this happen, any proof of it?

3- Outlier- an observation that is numerically distant from the rest of the data.

If you can show 20 sales below the suggested range, they aren't outliers.

If you can only find 1, and the suggester has 20 links in his suggested range, yes, it is an outlier. I have sold plenty of keys at 4.44 ref, don't use them as proof though. Why? Because I was lucky and not many people are in the same boat as me. Same goes for people buying them below. My 4.44 sales don't get used, their 4 ref buys don't get used. It is all a matter of where the majority happens. Unless you can prove more than one sale at a lower price, they are outliers by definition.

4- Key to metal ratio means nothing.

"Canada Money Supply (2011): CAD 614 billion; Canada Money Supply (2012): CAD 668 billion

US Money Supply (2011): USD 2150 billion; US Money Supply (2012): USD 2438 billion

By uneducated logic:

Ratio is 1850/564 =3.50 (2011), 3.64 (2012) => Price of each CAD increased

Actual Exchange Rate determined by market force:

1 CAD = 1.01 USD (2011), 1 CAD = 1.00 USD (2012) => Price of each CAD decreased

So why are people recording the ratio presented by stats.tf each day to prepare for an argument in the future?"

There is my answer to each of those statements.

regarding CAD vs. USD - tf2 isn't 2 nations (although it's quickly becoming a banana republic...)

the ratio of ref to keys argument is just there to show there isn't an obscene glut of metal coming in from alt accounts like so many people profess.

traders see through blinders and forget how much fun tf2 is. how fun it is to craft new items from metal when you're not a nickle and diming bp.tf value line checking tightwad

In only 22 days, key prices have risen by 0.33! WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THIS WORLD!

Every time a key suggestion thread is made people rage.

MFW when key suggestion threads are made :

http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/assets_c/2010/09/Jimmy_bieber_Popcorn_cu-thumb-350x197-14878.gif

Easy to find at 4-4.11, down vote

not if this gets passed, then you'll be hella lucky to find at 4 ref, just sayin

I'm being perfectly non-sarcastic when I ask this: where?

I'd really appreciate it if you tell me where. I might need more keys later.

/r/tf2trade, people buying em. /r/tf2trade's minecraft server, in 1 day you can get around 30ish keys. EDIT: I buy em for 4 ref there, and even then I don't have enough metal to buy em all.

Shhh... You're giving away our secrets.

I love how you post the same thing that I did and I get downrepped while you get uprepped.

Keys need to stop rising. Keep it at 4 ref and it will make it easier to calculate how much ref to sell items for and easier to buy and sell.

Ease of calculation does not determine key prices, not now, and not ever.

Outpost is down...proof is pretty much dead right now...

Dude its all over again example price is 4 ref people will like want to profit then sell it for 4.33 then people would suggest price based on 4.33 becuz people sell it for that then it goes on and on and on and on andon DOWNVOTE

no one pays over 4ref unless their desperate...

*they're

And did you even look at the proof above? A large number of people are constantly paying more than 4 ref. Maybe not a representative sample given the number of keys traded for metal every day, but if only we had some sort of tool that could track that... oh wait. TF2finance anyone? Not s'posed to be used as proof, but it can then tell us that enough people are paying above 4 ref to drag the average that high.

wana buy some keys for 2 keys each?

Scroll up and look at the past 2 Alternate/Past Suggestions, Score: -28 (accepted), Score: -10 (accepted). Why putting up a price suggestion for people to vote when mods are gonna forcefully accept any increment of key price? this is purely ridiculous

Because people don't vote based on what the price actually is.

No he is saying that our votes don't mean anything at all. Which is true. Our votes don't mean shit on this topic.....at all. End of story

Exactly as FearKitten said. Votes were supposed to be made according to the market, not personal prefernce. What does the market tell you about keys? that they are rising. What do people want? keys dropping. There's your answer.

then make key suggestions mod-only, votes are ignored because they are biased, then don't allow voting at all..makes no sense to have this shitstorm once a week for no reason..I enjoyed seeing all these kids cry for a while, it's just getting annoying now, why do u guys even bother..your argument that mods would get flamed for price manipulation is completely invalid, in case u haven't noticed: people are already flaming

I still think it's a bad idea.

so you're not sick of the weekly flamewar yet?

We all are. To discuss how to fix it try the forums please, there are many threads about it.

I dont like ranges and dont understand why there are ranges in most of item prices. It should be only 1 suggested price (now for example 4.11 for keys) and people will selling/buying for 4.11 or lower/higher if they want. This is suggested price not suggested range site.

Tfw I found a guy who is still willing to sell Keys for 2.66 Refined. I'd provide pictures as proof, but we're only still conversing it until I get metal to buy them with. I always seem to find the cool people...

> posts key suggestion

> Long criticizes me

> four days later Long posts same range with less proof

"4 days later"

Many things changed in 4 days

I'm sorry if this is obvious. Why do people downvote everything you do? I mean, as far as I can tell, a lot does happen to the TF2 economy in 4 days.

4 days earlier Long was buying keys...

Ive seen many keys for 4 ref, no need to increase.

http://backpack.tf/classifieds/search/key

4 right at the top selling for 4 ref. Just because some kids are highballing does not constitute a price change.

3 from 1 guy, who won't accept trade requests or has already sold them.

How do you know this?

Presumably because he added him. I tried doing so, rejected, as was Long's request.

no need to increase. keping the price at 4 ref is simple and makes sense. downvote

Why does everyone play TF2 just for the money?

we are not "playing" the game

Games are played. Otherwise this is a job. If you consider TF2 a job, I feel sorry for you honestly.

Erm... what do you call an experiment? A job? What about, say, a hobby? Is that also a job, since it's not a game? That statement, while fine rhetoric, is a fallacy, as it equates TF2, since it's not a game, to a job. Therefore, a person is to be pitied for not 'playing' TF2. Please take a ToK class and then resume your rhetoric.

I can trade even if I don't have the tf2 game installed on my pc

I buy at 4.22 but I haven't gotten any sellers for 2 days.

Actually..it makes me angry that...price of key is going up and up...soon 1 key will be 1 bud -.- I acutally liked old price better.. ( 2.66 Ref).

Oh man i sure do like the old price to.

Slippery slope fallacy. I can link you if you'd like. 0/10, would not logic again.

No one cares about your opinion.

No one cares about your comment.

you should give some time for the market to settle the price first

yes but no one cares becuse you dont have over 50 keys in ur bp

well then let the key go for 5 and 6

i don't care anymore

i will just use the metal to buy hats

Unfortunately at the rate keys are increasing if they put some time in between key suggestions they would be off a few scrap and because a key is a currency it could throw off a large amount of this sites accuracy.

why when we were rapidly updatign did the prices rise so fast? Now they are rising much slower, good.

STOP RAISING THIS, its a god dang chain dont you see? people have always sold and bought keys for lower and higher than the price is, even back when it was (2.66)! If you raise it people will just do the same! And you're ignoring the majority of people that buy it IN the price range it is now.

the amount of people buying/selling these keys for 4-4.11 makes you're evidence look like a tiny pebble on a mountain

red WHAT I HATE THE MOST: YOU HAVE 562 KEYS!!! ITS PRACTICALLY LIKE YOU'RE DOING THIS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD

Please explain to me what will I benefit from this especially when I don't do key banking and that this suggestion make keys worth more in real dollars.

*does not.

You accidentally a word.

A positive score for a comment by long! I never thought I'd see this... ever.

http://puu.sh/2kXfY

And now it's negative.

I knew with time it would be, that's why I took the screen shot! :D

You explain to everyone why 60% of you're backpack is made up of keys and its "not key banking" Honestly cut the crap man.

Because key is a currency, everybody use it and it save space ?

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/546-my-stance-on-reason-for-increase-in-key-prices/

http://tf2finance.com/2013_03/

fucking hell leave then at 3, 4 is bad enough, don't fucking raise it

Language, please.

Enough with the weekly price hike's, how bout let the price stabilize for a few weeks.

Too bad we can't treat tf2 currency like the metric system, where every upstage is an even amount. When keys were at 3 ref, it was perfect. 3 scrap for 1 rec. 3 rec for 1 ref. 3 ref for 1 key. Harmony. They were around 3 during the winter event. Within a few months, for whichever reason (The "refined metal is dropping" excuse or the "evidence" posted in these votes of highballers) the price of keys has jumped up buy more than one ref. This is just sad.

THE KEYS DO NOT NEED TO GO UP THIS IS RUNING THE ECONAMY EXPECALY THAT THING---------->

tf2 shop HAS RUIND MY TRADEING EXPERENCE NOW PEPOLE THINK THEY CAN GO ON THERE AND BUY KEYS FOR 1.50 AND SELL THEM THINKING THEY CAN MAKE A QUICK DOLLER PLZ STOP RAZING PRICES OF KEYS AND BUYING FROM THAT PILE OF RUBISH

You may don't know that long isn't raising the keyprices, he is just reporting them.

Educate yourself, please. http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/546-my-stance-on-reason-for-increase-in-key-prices/

his essay is alright, most of it is very basic stuff, some of it is incorrect and it can all be broken down into easier words and less useless graphs, pretty sure 95% of the people on here won't understand it and for the 5% who do, most of it is yesterday's news

Do you even grammar?

Let me first say, I am not one who enjoys voicing his opinion on websites/forums and the like, but after monitoring these key price suggestions over the past couple of weeks I feel compelled to speak up and make my first post on this site.

Alot of speculation has been flung about suggesting reasons why key prices are continuing to rise: From the mathmaticians producing various graphs and charts to justify the increase, inflation, haloween and the hate-train of idling. I will not go into why any of these opinions are right or wrong, its old hat.

I put it to you, that as backpack.tf is increasingly being used as the standard to price items, the constant suggestion of key prices and using fresh outpost trades as evidence is harmful to the market, the site's reputation, and is an upward cyclical process which is unlikely to slow.

As suggestions are accepted, the value is validated, prices are increased and a few days later proof of a further justification of increase in price is suggested.

This "proof" almost always comes from fresh 1-2 day old outpost trades, which have used the validated price of the prior suggestion + 1 scrap.. so as to make a profit while the keys of below the accepted value dry up quickly (on outpost.) within hours of the prior price being accepted.

I think the majority of people reading this, can agree in some part to that fact, and I therefore make the probably unpopular and flame-inciting request that community price suggesting of keys be removed, brought into the hands of admins, or at the very least strictly limited in some way, so as to stem this pattern before it gets out of hand.

Where else do you reccomend finding proof? Outpost doesn't let you search for closed trades, and so that kind of proof doesn't work. Now, it'd be understandable if you were objecting over them being used as proof and they got infrequent adds from frustrated people, but they're getting a large amount of fairly consistent adds.

That is a flaw in using outpost as counterproof, but the objection is that suggestions are made far too soon relative to the acceptance of the prior suggestion. Using proof of fresh trades while 1-2 day old closed trades of 1 scrap less get quickly snapped up, counterproof becomes unfindable, for the exact reason you just stated. If key prices were to rise once a 2weeks, as opposed to once every 2-3 days, it would give more time for counterproof to be found, selling at the current approved price or less. Only way to do that would be to take the ability to start a suggestion on key prices, and let an admin post one, every 2 weeks for people to discuss and then vote on. That seems to me to be a far more stable foundation of establishing price.

All these people ruining the TF2 economy. Time to cash out of this hell.

Then by all means, do so without the added commentary here.

Oh. Sorry. Didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

This springs to mind... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lITBGjNEp08

Please tell me that you have no counter proof and/or counterarguments and that your downvote is based on your own mind.

I've said what I have to say in previous key votes and people have basically summed up my views in comments above. I'm not playing this stupid, never-ending counter argument game any more. If it passes then it passes, if it doesn't then it doesn't. Good day, sir.

[intelligent-sounding paragraph]

[insults opposing opinion]

yup pretty much

Why on earth are we letting Outpost dictate the prices of keys? As soon as they get raised, the highballers at outpost will just rise more for profit and then keys will go up... again. Anyone wanna place a bet that keys will be 12 ref by the summer at this rate?

Let's see your counter-proof.

I bet you keys won't be 12 ref.

You show all the buyers at 4.11 ref and greater you should show all the buyer's at 4 ref and under. Who have successfully bought keys.

im sellin keys for 2 keys each if anyones interested ^.-

Keys are going to be over 4.22 a piece by the time this gets passed. zzzzz...

That's how it usually happens, I suspect 4-4.33 in a day or 2

in an hour or 2*

4.33 ref is possible since a week ago.

Owns: 562. This guy probably runs the tf2 economy.

That's not even 20 buds, it's like 1/1,000th of the total key supply... There are hats who's individual value is far greater then Longs entire backpack is worth.

Yeh, but his backpack is pretty much, just keys. and 1/1000 of the supply is a shitton. The guy probably doesn't even play tf2. He just has keys and waits for the prices to rise.

You sound really newbie, 562.are too much for you? LAW, People have backpacks that worth more of 100 buds and they play (mattie!)

I play all the time.

Going back to spreadsheet if this is accepted.

4 ref

no more.

Good for you man, are people here supposed to care?

no good for you person with 58 keys and people will care if they want too.

implying that amount of key in my bp matters

2 skrap profit matturs

please dislike me, it helps the suggestion.

dislike if you agree

I'll be happy to dislike you, but for another reason altogether.

because I own keys in my bp and I'm 50x richer than you

even after I cashed out $700 your bp still worth less than mine.

noob.

NICE PAYPAL BALANCE LONG

WHAT'S IT AT RIGHT NOW? -$1000?

I DON'T BUY ALL MY KEYS FROM CARDERS. SORRY.

doesn't matter.

I won't have to pay it lol.

http://puu.sh/2l460 http://puu.sh/2l46t

you owe me 3 keys

agreed, maybe spreedsheet will have more credit :|

back to spreedsheet I suppose

Long I'm genuinely curious why is it that you always seem to be the most eager to raise key prices even though its been generally agreed that rising keys is a bad thing. You claim yourself that it's not to raise your bp value but if that's not the case then why?

Well he don't do key banking, he spend keys in buds and bigger items, so he really don't need raise the keys, he only show the raise of keys.

Why the hell does all this exist. Why do people sell keys outside of the store. Do people really have nothing else to spend money on, that they have to hunt someone else to buy keys from. I think half these pricing sites are retarded. Uuughh. Sure, metal is going down, but IN MONEY. Really, others shouldnt suffer the price increase is they don't buy keys. It's getting so annoying.

"if they don't buy keys" uh keys are a essential part of the tf2 economy there a currency. Also they have massive demand for people who want to unbox. Also people don't always spend real money on a key in fact often its just with metal or items.

THAnk you stranger

1111 votes, dang

half are probably downvotes from "LE FUNI TROELS" who downvoted .

Half? I think are like more of quarter #lesavetehkeys haha

I find it hilarious how Andy's comment got downvoted for no good reason. #SAVETEHKEYYYS lol

kids get mad easily 8(

I just read ALL the comments ._.

You still can get these for 4 refined?

Actually, when I see people are downvoting every comment with nice proof and very logical reasoning, or just Long's comment, I kinda lose my faith in this community.

Yes, we all want cheaper prices for everything. Except for those who is trying to sell the item.

Too bad, you just can't vote/suggest when you are not thinking logical and looking at the proof... So if you downvote this suggestion (or any logical reasoning, respectful comment), you really should think about still being around on this site.

Because it shows that you don't want put up prices that are being sold/bought for, but you want to manipulate prices. This is, in my eyes, unacceptable and you should not vote/suggest anything else on this site.

Feel free to downvote this suggested price though if you find plenty counterproof. I don't have a problem with that.

TL;DR: Don't downvote every key suggestion without decent counterproof. And don't downvote every Long's comment (or other's comments supporting him) without good reason.

Kind regards.

i gave up a LOOOOOOOOOng time ago

I <3 you

<3 love you too mate

Not you...

i like how this guy has a ton of keys and raises the price no one cares but if i have ONE strange festive fish and try to raise the price THE whole comunity rains down on me and tells me im wrong. and other thing is most of the pepole who do this are the upper class of tf2 no one cares if they have a tona of keys annyway. i want things back to whare they where at least when keys where 3.66 befor the update of doom. i meen look at my backpack i just buy items annytime i have anny keys i just spend them to make myself look better or unbox somethig item like in the old days not like today where pepole get keys just to sell and make a quick buck. i love tf2 and i see it changing too much. there im done ranting. and boy do i not care to change all thows red squiglys HAVE FUN YELLING AT ME

because I have proof.

and raising key in metal price does not profit me in anyway as key's value in dollar stay the same and I don't sell keys for metal.

u wouldent make money getting metal becuse pepole keep lowering it just like they rise keys. there is the a guy up there that has a list its rilly easy to folow but u must have overlooked it soo il repost thanks to: Got Dayum || Tuxapocalypse

1. Someone sees price at Backpack.tf at 2.66 ref and sells his Key on Outpost.

2. Outpost sellers buy them all at 2.66 ref

3. Outpost sellers post trades of 2.77 ref and successfully sell all

4. Backpack.tf records it as evidence and raises suggested price to 2.77 ref

5. Outpost sellers tries to sell at 2.88 AND Someone sees price at Backpack.tf at 2.77 ref and sells his Key.

8. Outpost sellers buy all available ones at 2.77 ref

9. Outpost sellers post trades of 2.88 ref and successfully sell all

10. Backpack.tf records it as evidence and raises suggested price to 3 ref

11. Outpost sellers sell at 3.11 ref

12. Rinse and Repeat

look this will keep going untill someone wants a change, that is impotent, like you because you have so many keys witch make you a pro.

too bad keys stayed at 2.55-2.66 for a very very long time even when bp.tf was here.

yes becuse most pepole dident have a TON of keys at the time and the game dident have a lot of players at the time becuse it wasent F2P

what does that have to do with anything ?

the point you are trying to make is people selling one scrap higher than the price on backpack.tf but then why didn't the price change with the same rate as right now when keys were 2.55-2.66 because you know, sellers always want to sell higher.

it is EVERY TIME YOU RAISE THE PRICE PEOPLE PUSH IT AND SELL IT FOR MORE THEN THE BP PRICE

BUT I RAISE PRICE BECAUSE PEOPLE SUCCESSFULLY SOLD IT AT A HIGHER PRICE.

WHY DIDN'T PEOPLE TRY TO SELL MORE THAN THE BP PRICE IN ORDER TO PUSH IT WHEN KEYS WERE WORTH 2.55-2.66

talking in caps is cool.

i explaind that no one had that many keys and no one had a complaint about the price that was just the price

I KNOW IT IS SOOOOOOO FUN

AFTER THIS PEOPLE WILL SUCCESSFULLY SELL IT AT A HIGHER PRICE. THIS CAN GO AROUND AND AROUND

ok just give up arguing with me

i dont think you got the point

I don't think you're anywhere near to making any sort of point and just because butthurt kids blindly downvote Long's comments doesn't mean you are right.

You want sell your fish, he don't do key banking, he spent their keys in buds or high tier items, so he don't need the raise of keys, he only SHOW the raise of keys, simply

implying amount in backpack matters

yes guy with keys yes it does

Almost every trader has keys in their backpack. It is a currency item.

yes to an extent

implying a tiny little change in a $2000 backpack matters

Probably because your suggestion was bad.

You're suggestion: [url]http://backpack.tf/vote/id/51069bd6ba25365a6c000000[/url]

Suggested price: 8-10 keys || Current price: 7-8 keys

Some comments:

"first time, so i'll be nice. This doesnt count as proof, what people want for their item doesnt matter when you are trying to raise the price. you need to find people willing to buy for your suggested price. for example, I can try to sell a weapon for a bud, but unless someone's actually willing to buy for a bud, it wouldn't change the price. When your suggesting a price, you need completed trades" - DeathReaper

-------------

"You provided links of people showing them at 8 keys. Erm.....?" - Woifi | Promethium

-------------

"a bit of counter proof:

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8158837[/url] 7 keys

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8210602[/url] selling for 7 keys - had someone willing to pay it but rejected because he already spent his keys.

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8196793[/url] 7 keys 1 ref" - Wesley

--------------------------------------------------

You wonder why the community told you your suggestion was wrong?

i know im sorry i was unexperenced and an idiot but now im more experenced i wish i wouldent have said that in the first place i was after a profit but now that i don't care about how many keys i have. btw where you the same guy that commented that?

Example is an Example.

Sorry for rudeness but i think it is enough already

"Some people is really retarted.." -Example.

>Cannot use the correct conjunction of the to be verb.

>Cannot spell retarded correctly.

>Cannot correctly end his sentence with either one period or three.

Sorry for not knowing english

then you shouldn't go around and call other people retarded.

Isn't enough with the key price?

I know i am noone to tell you what to do but still

If you can read this then read it http://tf2finance.com/2013_03/

You still should not be calling other users retarded because it contributes nothing to the conversation.

man i love when pepole point that out becuse u see i have disleexia i understand that there is a line underneath words spelled wrong but I just dont care

"man i love when pepole point that out becuse u see i have disleexia i understand that there is a line underneath words spelled wrong but I just dont care"

Dyslexia should not impair your ability to type properly this severely. How your sentence should be constructed with proper dictation and punctuation:

Man I love when people point that out because you see I have dyslexia, and I understand that there is a line underneath words that are misspelled (not even a logical follow up from stating that you have dyslexia), but I just do not care.

Also I wasn't even addressing you.

I believe you missed a few commas. I think it is:

"Man, I love when people point that out because, you see, I have dyslexia, and I understand that there is a line underneath words that are misspelled, but I just do not care."

Is 4 ref even possible at this point?

Looks like the tf2 economy is going to crash soon.

It already did. A long time ago

implying raising the key price by 1 scrap will crash the economy

a scrap a week make people weak.

Long, that made my day.

yep...

why am i even trying annymore

STOP THE MADNESS

Why? If it's the accurate price, shouldn't it be accepted?

http://tf2finance.com/2013_03/

cool story bro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6pxhCUgZgE

You guys know premium upgraders? those came out just around the time that keys started going up. i believe keys went up because the upgraders made it so that usd was't needed to be spent to get infinite premium accounts to idle on.

There is so much wrong in this comment it makes me want to grind my face with a belt sander.

how so?

Key prices have been going up PRIOR to premium accounts being mass created.

Just look through the history of key prices.

It may have a part to play in this whole mess, but it's not the one main cause.

True, the key has been going up since just about forever

My observation was that the premium upgraders just made it a lot easier to get a ptp account (basically without needing to spend any real money, just metal).

Fair enough I suppose.

As much as I don't like keys rising in price as long as people are dumb enough to pay at those prices the cycle will continue.

http://i.imgur.com/8pZC87a.png

Wow.

dude trolling. I added him and he declined.

I see. It's so rare that I don't even know what to say.

i like this site because have the same lawyers(keys manipulators) all the time, i'm wondering if in future this site is gonna be the "new spreadsheet" because you all are starting to road for bad path and after that 191951586 proofs from outpost cant save you all ("backpackers" key manipulators),

i have one suggestion

-Only 2 keys suggestion per month and made for one admin of backpack,tf

in this suggestion, we need to see (OP links, Other trade sites and SERVERS proofs)

because is completely irrealistic the raise of keys (or we have 96926925 new accounts everyday)

If only us admins are allowed to make suggestions, we would be flamed for manipulation. Anyone can make a key suggestion.

im not saying for all suggestion, but for keys suggestions i think is good idea since we have so much polemic around key price

Here is the problem is they only make two suggestions per month and they are off a scrap or two in the period in between those suggestions then that will throw a lot of prices off due to keys use as a currency.

WUT?

Edit: grammar, use it.

useless comment english is not my main language, but ok

Got enough invested interest?

I bet Long's reputation is in the deepest layer of Hell by now.

Patience

POR QUE???

Got shut down because of rudeness, opens another suggestion....

I find it funny how my opinion on key suggestion depend on the amount of keys in my BP. No joke.

I sense a disturbance in the force.

This isn't really relevant to arguing the price but, I understand the rise is with refined becoming less valuable but honestly, I can see a day when the key will be 10-11 ref just for one, or who knows even more! The point is where does it end?

When buyers stop paying top dollar (a.k.a. top refined) for keys.

Exactly right.

Check this guy out http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9085067

Meh.

"i have 562 keez so i must raise their price so i can sell for higher ololol"

implying he manipulates price for himself

WHY DO YOU HAVE SO MANY FLIPPING KEYS MAN?

Because he's a flippin' keys man.

Dem key flippers.

I feel as though no one ever truly appreciates the hilarity of double entendres.

I gotchu no worries.

thanks, that had -2 points last night. :)

keys for 2 keys each? anyone?

No matter what happens this'll be accepted.

it's a shame because it'll get a massive amount of disagrees.

backpack.tf is the new spreadsheet, controlled by a small amount of people.

The problem is people are voting for what they want to happen rather than what is actually happening. Most of these votes are opinions, and opinions aren't valid on this site. There (sadly) isn't a sufficient amount of counterproof to stop suggestions like these from being accepted, and so they will be accepted. I've been looking all over for anything to contradict this suggestion but I've turned up empty.

What is actually happening is people aren't going to sell keys for under the maximum. They're keys, people aren't scrambling to get rid of them. When the price raises, everyone sells for max, because that's how markets work.

Then the price is raised again, and people repeat, and the price is raised again.

Keys are raising in price, but nothing else is, despite keys being currency.

Holy shit, what happened?! Last time I was trading they were 3.33!

Welcome to Spreadsheet v.2

Please explain.

http://tf2finance.com/keys/

Downvoted.

its in the range 4-4.22. in the middle its 4.11. tf2finace is at 4.12 that doesnt fit in the range of 4-4.11

Well, this will pas, despite downvotes and everyone's complaints and everything, mainly because people on outpost are willing to buy for the top end and because finance is about 4.11-4.15 today.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8544309

Just dump your keys with me. Im supporting the rise because people are selling for 4.33 - 4.55 and I get no customers.

Anyone who disagrees with the price, claims that keys are lower, can sell your keys to me because that's profit isn't it.

agreed there are buyers of 4.22 which dont have many adds. there is proof in his suggestion of people buying for 4.22. i believe that all you need. if there are multiple people buying for 4.22 and the high price is 4.22. upvote

If you have 500 ref and buy 100 keys 5 ref each. That's the high end. Dont sustain it and it will drop. But when others latch on to the 5 ref price, you dont need to sustain it. Same logic here.

Look at this chart: http://puu.sh/2lfT8

Ooooo squiggly line. Anyway what's that?

Apparently it the tiny dip that keys took below 4.11 refined average selling price last night on tf2finance: [url]http://tf2finance.com/keys/[/url]

He completely neglected that for multiple hours before that it had been selling quite nicely above 4.11 refined.

I was just showing what Long did wrong when he said "Look at this chart."

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/7967179

"I hold the right to pay 3.33 ref at anytime instead of a key" lol

Thought he was "going to work on being more mature and would give free items to anyone who points out rudeness." Huhm...

And why it's the point? He don't run the mannconomy, he only show the current price.

"1 key each except for highfive. I will pay 1 key for high five"

also lol

What a douche right?

Well to be fair I haven't update that key price on my trade for a very very long time and I never actually pay 3.33 because there are people who want to buy the same item for a key

You have 562. You scumbag.

*New contributor*

Upvote because I stopped selling and buying keys for metal

Okay, this is getting tiresome. Will someone please explain to me why do the key prices go up? This is just really stupid for something that's virtually infinite, don't you think?

Couldn't everyone just go back to the 2.55 prices? I mean, it's not like the key prices in USD are increasing, and I say again, they are infinite in quantity. So an increase in demand won't actually do much since these things are practically infinite until the Valve item server explodes along with everyone else in the company and the company building itself, leaving no traces of anything besides ash and burnt material without anything being even remotely salvageable.

Conspiracy Time:

Maybe with the rising metal price in keys shall force people into buying from the Mann Co. store instead. I say it in a simple sentence. Maybe this is a genius plan by Valve in order to GET MORE MONEY OUT OF US. OH GOD.</conspiracy>

I don't see why people keep increasing the price and other people just buy and buy instead of downright getting mad at the person for overpricing. So, from what I've been reading, the inaction of us people who dislike this rise in price also add to the reason why it does rise because there still hasn't been a suggestion to decrease it. (Correct me here if I'm wrong, I don't suggest new prices.)

So, I can gather that one must present proof to convince more people that the prices really are rising. Well, I think that is the main reason.

Conspiracy Time:

What if some of those trades are produced by clever groups of people with the agenda of raising the price of a certain item of which they can easily acquire. *uhrm uhrm*Keys are $2.49 *uhrm* They sell these at a price subtly above the current price, the other of the group buys it and it goes on from there. Some of us could be fooled.

But don't tell me that I'm such an idiot because there are cheaper items in the store. If you do so, I am afraid to say sir/madam, that YOU are the idiot.

Let's say that a paint bucket is $0.99 and our humble key is $2.49.

Now, if I am correct you'd say that this certain group would instead buy the paint and sell it at a subtly high price, correct? Tsk. Tsk.

Everyone would get mad once said paint reaches 4 ref. I mean, who'd even upvote that kind of thing? But keys, they're a different matter. They have value, they open crates that grace us with stranges, hats, and those really shitty unusuals with some decent ones thrown in. All acquired by simply unlocking an item that drops like drops from diarrhea and is mostly valued the same as well. Until you get a key.

</conspiracy>

Anyways, how about idlers? Idling accounts and stuff. Since the F2P update well, idling accounts would have tripled in value. Some idlers even handle up to 50 accounts. And yes, it can be automated.

So for our example here, let's say that the average idler has 5 accounts. For the sake of math. 1:5 This doesn't include the main account.ddd

Now, in our fictional situation, the current idler user to idler accounts is 1:5. Back then, let's say 1:2. So before the F2P update we have a fixed population of 500 idlers. Which means that there are 1,000 idle accounts that generate metal every week. Now, with the F2P update every damn idler gets the bright idea to create more accounts since TF2 turned F2P anyways. And... so what? Keys are infinite, idlers and traders are getting greedier and the economy is still horrible. Not much. Not much. Oh, and F2P has become synonymous with "unskilled <insert insulting noun here>"

I think anyone with half a brain would understand why limited edition things like festives are rising in price.

I wonder, why does a huge increase in demand (thanks to idlers with a lot of accounts) affect the in-game price of something that doesn't have any increase in its actual price, and is of limitless quantity? You don't grow it, you code a part for it to give someone a copy when they buy and that's pretty much it, so just leave it there.

Well, that's pretty much it, I'm not going to bother posting this on SPUF since I avoid posting there like how I avoid the plague, but if ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE at all, would like to quote this, all insults to me shall be rerouted to you. Be responsible.

Also, feel free to correct me. In a well written and properly lain out format please. Also, don't blatantly flame me since I wasn't flaming you.

Have a nice day and some cupcakes.

Flame. Flame. Flame.

....

FLAME!

Ha!

How has this not been accepted yet?

THE MURDER OF JFK

10 REASONS WHY

A RESPONSIBLE CONCLUSION

Since November 22, 1963, there have been over 2,000 books, dozens of television programs and countless movies filled with theory, conjecture and myth as to why John F. Kennedy was gunned down in broad daylight on a downtown Dallas street.

Until now, no one has been able to prove anything other than the fact that the FBI and the CIA did little to help the Warren Commission, a select group of bureaucrats with an agenda of lies.

Denials, false sponsors, and government cover-ups continue to reign supreme, the latest attempt being the Assassination Records Review Board, five scholars appointed by President Bill Clinton. The Review Board, while powerless from a judicial standpoint, appears credible, yet "controlled." Their mission, to quote Chairman John Tunheim, is to "convince the American people that the government is not withholding any documents from the public."

Professional assassins don't take notes or leave documents behind.(1)

The real proof is in the evidence gathered after the crime.

One must consider the truths that are self evident if the murder of JFK is to truly be "solved."

Let us now clearly examine these truths:

1- The Kennedy family were/are members of "the elite" (players in international high finance circles) since the early days of Joseph Kennedy. John F. Kennedy was elected to office through monetary power and with the help of the Mafia. Without the total support of other members of "the elite" - he would not have become President.(2)

2- JFK and his brother, RFK, attacked organized crime in an effort to expose the Mafia to the public and curtail its power. JFK and Chicago mob boss Sam Giancana shared the same mistress, Judith Campbell Exner. Giancana helped JFK win the election in Illinois and on the east coast.(3)

3- Since 1942, the CIA and the Mafia have worked together in numerous clandestine operations.(4)

4- JFK refused to allow the CIA and American troops to attack Cuba thereby creating the infamous Bay of Pigs fiasco in 1961. Following that incident, General Charles P. Cabell, Deputy Director of the CIA, went around Washington calling President Kennedy a traitor. The CIA solicited the services of the Mafia to kill Fidel Castro.(5)

5- International bankers have controlled America for over 100 years.(6)

6- The Vatican Bank is one of the most powerful international financial institutions in the world. Paul Marcinkus, the sole American ever to rise to an executive position in the Vatican Bank, was from Cicero, Illinois, a legendary Chicago mob stronghold. In 1994, Marcinkus was accused of money laundering drug profits in a USA Today news report. Now a resident of Arizona, Marcinkus declined to comment.

7- CIA operatives and former covert agents using CIA planes and vehicles often control the transportation of narcotics from the source. The Mafia controls the global drug distribution network to the consumer. The defunct Nugan-Hand Bank in Australia as well as banks in the Cayman Islands and Switzerland have also participated in CIA/Mafia money laundering of drug profits.(7)

8- The public execution of John F. Kennedy was accomplished by a three man Mafia/CIA "firing squad" in association with a patsy, Lee Harvey Oswald. The CIA was aware of the attempt on JFK's life prior to 11/22/63 and flew in an "abort" team to Dallas on the morning of the "hit."(8)

9- In 1963, John F. Kennedy was preparing to amend the National Labor Relations Board statutes and various Internal Revenue Service statues that would prevent foreign flag shipping from being exempt from American income taxes. These amendments would have seriously affected Liberian shipping magnates and the assets of men such as Aristotle Onassis. Billions of dollars were at stake. President Kennedy was killed three days before he was to make these amendments public.(9)

10- In 1979, The House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded that there was a "probable conspiracy" in the murder of JFK and that organized crime members "possibly" were involved.(10)

CONCLUSION

The world will never know who the persons were that gave the "official" order to kill John F. Kennedy for those persons are either already dead, close to death, silent in fear of death, or they choose to remain silent until death.

And what suppost to do with the raising the Mann Co Keys vote selection ?

rilly anyone try relating tis to the us econamy becuse most would see that its gonna crash the price of something going up (oil) while something is going down (us $) its gonna crash i look at keys as gas prices in the us that is not good

Wow, you live in America and your english is more worse than mine..

What do you want to tell?

I quite don't get it.

I like how this suggestion has been up for a long time now. Im starting to think that the admins want more time for tf2finance to adjust so it plays in the favor of this suggestion. I say enough proof, opinion, talk, voting, etc has been given. To keep this open any longer will only result in eventual inaccuracies.

That, and I ran out of popcorn for the fights.

tf2finance is already adjusting to support a higher range than the one suggested, it was perfectly supporting this suggestion at the beginning, what's your point?

Leave the keys alone! :'( , all you people care about is readers and making off of her. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

what the hell? are all of you crazy? The best price of a key is 2.66

* http://youtu.be/hpdZwuyEmRk?#t=42s *

2000 votes, can we make it? CAN WE?

this is just one vicious circle of key prices going up, people look here, ask for 1 scrap more, price gets adjusted, people look here, ask 1 scrap more etc.

People stop buying keys - BOOM, circle broken.

^it's that easy..that's all it takes..

so you think people are going to keep on buying keys if the prices are going batshit crazy?

Am I the only one that just reads the comments of key suggestions?

use scrap.tf to buy craft hats 1.33ref each. Get 3 hats for 4 ref. Go to outpost. Get a key in 5 seconds for those 3 crafthats. Downvt'd (thus you own 562 keys, lel. Straight downvote)

did you see 4.22 ref buyers? or are you blind?

LEL HE OWNS 562 ... OBVIOUS PRICE MANIPULATOR BECAUSE $10 RAISE MATTERS!!!!

And 4 ref is in the range. Did you not see the 4.22 buyers? There are many ways, not just 1 to get keys. lelelelellel3l3elleelel

Outpost trades full of buyers at 4-4.11 and successful sellers at 4.22. Finanace indicates a stable average of around 4.11, so multiple sites and trade servers are seeing sales across the suggested range.

Accepting.