Suggestion: Mann Co. Supply Crate Key at 5–5.33 ref

The price Finance shows is not the high end of the trades they track. It is the average of all the trades they track. So it being at 5.14 doesn't disprove this suggestion. If anything, it helps support it since the median price is 5.16 ref.

Average, not median. The median price is undoubtedly a little higher than that. But yeah.

http://trade.tf/price/5021/6

5 ref max

Downvote

5 ref keys are really rare don't know why in the range. I couldnt get one when i had a trade buying them at 5 ref http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10615398 I had it up for a whole day. Closed it for room for other trades and it seemed useless to have open if i couldn't even get one

Have you tried any trade servers? Usually it's a lot easier to get things cheaper that way.

I'm not going to sit in a server waiting an hr to get a key. Its not practicable and if the need to go to a trade server and spamming "Buying keys 5 Ref" for hours is what needs to be done then its not really in the range.

It is much easier to find item cheaper on trade server than on outpost

Yea but thats time wasted. When i could work on my work while seeing in the corner if i get an add out. Trade servers sucked when i used them and still do. (You can seee when i stoped using them in my chart history)

The number of people looking to buy is low and to top it off chances are they dont want your stuff

5 Refined is decently common on trade servers. I've entered quite a few where right off the bat a heard a guy selling them for 5 refined.

A little bit of patience goes a long way, my friend.

I know about patience, But i know that there is a difference on wasting my actual time in a trade server.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10683918 - 1 day no keys.

Because its Outpost, aka the Magical Land of Highballers. It's much easier to negotiate a price on a trade server, especially with voice chat.

I think it has something to do with "Oh, ok, you're an actual human being instead of a faceless drone, I feel bad about blatantly making a profit at your expense." And then they sell the key for a little bit lower.

Also, what do you define as "wasting time"? I'd assume that we're wasting time just by playing this game.

No i enjoy playing the game. Sitting in a trade server isnt playing or fun.

The type of people who think that way about outpost tend to be bad at selling and buying at a pricing sites prices.

You're not supposed to blindly follow a pricing site's prices. The way I do my trading is that I offer something the other guy wants, he offers what I want, and we're both happier people. I get my beloved Strange Knife (which has seen the spinal fluid of many an unfortunate soul) and he get his Meet the Medic Taunt. Is it an imbalanced trade in his favor? Yes. But do I care? No. I get what I want and he gets what he wants.

Furthermore, many trade servers allow you to mess around while doing business. You can still have fun and add more spinal fluid to your Strange Knife while also getting generally better prices. GoldenRod city comes into mind.

No trade servers dont make profit or are fun. Outpost helps me make bank. All i use. And i get to play any game i want, watch tv shows and movies, all while trrading and not needing to spam "selling unusuals and buying unusuals"

But there are people who do like trade servers. Coincidentally, those people also manage to get more negotiable trades up and running. You may not find it impractical, but just because you don't like using trade servers does not mean that it isn't considered when determining the market price.

i didnt say exclude the prices you can get in a trade server. Im just saying its not practical.

This has more to do with a belief that the key is worth more than it is right now. Keys can be harder to buy because sellers think if they wait they will get more in the future so why sell it now. I am even guilty of this. I have 20+ keys and am doing nothing with them because as soon as I use them, what ever I get will drop in value.

I use keys all the time. It makes you more profit then if you wait.

I haven't found that to be true. It may depend on what u buy and at what tier u trade at. At mid level trading, the key is a different animal.

Im a good example of what i mean on using keys yield you more profit then waiting.

Clever is going to warn this whole conversation. Sorry for being off topic.

Take it to the forums, verbal warning

Why did you warned my comment cleverpun? I was just expressing my opinion, this now feel like a dictatorship where I can't even express my opinion, could I at least get a good reason? (It's below btw)

I have a few points to make that (hopefully!) actually have to do with the suggestion.

First off, why still include 5 ref in your suggested range when on a quick view none of your links appear to support it? I see only one or two, which in my opinion would make this too rare to be in the range.

Secondly I would suggest either removing 5.11 links from your proof or putting them under a separate header. These links serve no real purpose here as they are in the current range; all it does is make the wall of links look more impressive and supporting of your range than it actually is.

"http://scrap.tf/keys sold out at 5.22" - I also doubt the validity of using scrap.tf as proof. 5.22 is only one scrap above the current range, and you can easily argue that people will pay a premium price for the convenience of trading with a super fast, always-online bot.

I am not sure how to otherwise provide counterproof to this - provide links of unsold 5.33 ones? I should note I think keys are such a high-volume item that any key will get sold eventually, unless the price is really outrageous. If I get any links to prove/disprove this suggestion, I'll add them into this comment.

edit: Ok so after ten minutes of exciting TF2Outpost refreshing, after which it went down and I hit F5 for nothing, here are the preliminary results:

THE HOLY GRAIL: A 5 REF SELLER (He eventually accepted my invite; he got 'like 10' within minutes, the poor guy): http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10680458

Sellers at 5.11

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10275592 (out of stock)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10679958

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10679618

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10680786

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10680970

Sellers at 5.22 Unless noted all were in stock at time of writing.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10680219

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10579363

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9205473

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10637698

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10678090

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10653565

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10679736

http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2trade/comments/1e1ar9/h_18_keys_w_522_each/

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10680652

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10680764

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10680747

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10671881

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10680105

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10680899

http://bazaar.tf/trade/212771

Unsold at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10589665 Has not sold any in the four days the trade has been open (check his backpack history)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9610099 Only 3 adds in an entire week (trade notes)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10658954 Cannot check his claims of selling 8 so far - no adds on trade and bp hasn't been viewed recently.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10679743 For 40 minutes at time of writing.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10629747 One add two days ago.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10600729 One add in 3 days.

http://bazaar.tf/trade/205468 Sold 7. In a week. Still in stock.

and countless, countless others, if you want me to go through the pain of listing them tell me.

I'd say raising to 5.33 is unnecessary for now, either the current range or 5-5.22 / 5.11-5.22 will do.

edit: I added a few more links. If this comment doesn't get me rep I'll cry myself to sleep tonight.

I can't edit my previous comment anymore.

Selling at 5.22 (all in stock unless otherwise noted)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10531243

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10600427

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10541327

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10640522

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9205473

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10363925 (out of stock)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10653565

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10671881

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10538482

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10685047

Miscellaneous

http://www.reddit.com/r/tf2trade/comments/1e1g52/h15_ref_w_3_keys_also_have_a_crafted_cockfighter/ Bought one for 5 ref

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10686227 Selling for 5.11 + one weapon

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10685819 Selling for 5 ref lol, already sold out

Stumbled upon the reddit link by accident, haven't really looked at buying trades to be honest.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10589665 is out ouf stock

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9610099 two adds in under 12 hours

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10658954 sold both

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10629747 3 people offering at 5.22 and failed

http://bazaar.tf/trade/205468 let get real. who even use bazaar.

warehouse keys 5 ref and overstocked.

(but of course "who even use [wh || bazaar || trade servers]" right?)

Trade servers? What's that? The only place to trade is obviously outpost.

(sarcasm detected ;) right... the answer to the above "who even use (sic) [wh || bazaar || trade servers]"? not long218, that's for sure. the lazy get to set the prices via outpost without seeing the entire picture.

and before anyone poopoos on wh again, some craft hats are not overstocked, you just have to be smart when to trade, there's a very nice backpack feature they added a few months back that you can use to quickly see what in your backpack is not overstocked.

i've been buying stuff for refined on outpost, selling to warehouse, and then using credits to either buy their 15000cc (and previously 11000, 13000, 14000, etc) keys for months never having to have to convert refined to keys directly. this trading cycle allows me to this day get keys for typically 25% off the bp.tf price.

but of course, the warehouse is irrelevant... you know, with their 80+ bots each containing an average of $1500 worth of items each...

lol 'two adds in under 12 hours' - did you see the trader's response to both of those?! He said neither guy added him (or they did but removed him before a sale could be made).

'let get real', really now? There is no need for that insulting tone. Bazaar.tf is not so unheard of people wouldn't be able to find it if they wanted to. Outpost may be the most used site in the trading community but it sure as hell isn't the only one.

That also still leaves the rest of my links as valid counterproof. I think 5.22 is common enough that including 5.33 in the range is not necessary at all.

Not to mention that even if he did get 2 adds in 12 hours, that's a pretty low amount of trades when you're talking about keys.

people who don't like wading through thousands of quickbuy trades and shit traders.

I use bazaar to get away from the million shit trades on outpost and only see the reasonable ones.

Outpost sucks, yet backpack always follows it's trends.

Backpack:I sell keys for 4-4.11 ref

Outpost: Yah, but I sell them for a scrap more

Backpack:Sounds fair, I'll just raise my price to your standard then.

Outpost:Whoops, then I guess I gotta raise my prices by a scrap.

backpack: Than I shall do the same!! :D

Thats trading in a nutshell

That's not how it works. This might be an interesting read for you: http://tf2finance.com/2013_03/

isnt that the same logic dude...

Except he explains why it ISN'T true if you keep reading. Seriously, don't call me a moron if you can't even read the full text.

It's funny because it's true.

You know, this has been reposted since keys were 3 ref and is not funny anymore....

How is that supposed to be funny?

Ok, its does not add anything to the coments, we realize its his opinion and he does not need 11 lines to say it

That's hardly an opinion. It's how key prices work.

Alright then, lets see how far it gets you. The point was that he was cut copying from other people and other suggestions, and it is just a waste of space.

>how key prices work in my head

FTFY

that's such a tired and flawed argument, yet no one will listen to / coherently respond to counter arguments that disprove it. after all, downvoting / covering your ears and shouting LALALALALA is sooo much easier to do.

It will continue to go up INDEFINITELY like this because of Hatch, Long, and other key price suggesters. If Backpack doesn't raise the baseline price, keys stay the same. If keys are 4.66 on backpack, and outpost users make a scrap profit, that shouldn't mean that 4.77 the new standard, since many other people will continue to buy for 4.66. Yet for whatever reason, these key suggestors and their methods are still completely fine.

Why? I'd like a little insight on this. Maybe some explanation from someone as to why this is still happening.

bp.tf actually froze key prices at 4.66-4.77 or somewhere around there for a week, and guess what happened? in that week, keys kept rising, hitting 5+, and bp.tf was left with an outdated price but let's just keep on believing bp.tf controls the market and sets prices and those meanies hatch and long and mattje and naknak are conspiring with the admins to raise their bp worth - after all, thinking about supply and demand and speculative bubbles makes my brain hurt

when was this? are you talking about the week from april 14th-21st when the price was 4.55-4.66 before going up a massive scrap and then staying stable a bit more? they didn't hit 5 ref for a 3 weeks... imho that actually proved that bp.tf *does* have an effect.

also: http://tf2finance.com/keys/ (5.09 as of this writing)

Once you set up a trend it continues regardless of anything. Since traders understand how to exploit this suggestion system, they would just raise the price knowing backpack.tf must follow. So the "price-freeze" may have worked when keys were like 3 ref, but not now.

could I PLEASE USE THAT AS A QUOTE!

If you look at Finance the key trade price is rising just in the last half day. Possibly as a reaction to this suggestion.

http://tf2finance.com/keys/

Furthermore, Trade.tf still shows keys flat lined at 5 ref.

http://trade.tf/price/5021/6

Swag inc explained why he believes this is shown this way and, so far, we have no reason to think its a glitch.

How do u consider the keys price when it used for items (trade.tf)? We never have proof of that here.

It seems to me that the proof does not match what is happening. I would recommend closing this.

Mods I am currently gathering more proof and I will post more in the afternoon so don't close this yet.

People call your Bp Worthless but many forget that you have alts. that you check everyday.

What is that even supposed to mean, and how is that topic related?

Just a thing many people missing.

So what has this to do with the suggestion?

So if I'm right you you were referending to people who call his backpack worthless because he can't trade. And you think he has multiple alts with tons of keys? I wouldn't call 33 keys that much.~

But enough of it, this is in no way topic related and hasn't to do anything with the case.

http://tf2finance.com/keys/

still not even at 5.11, nope

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10600729 add at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10686142 sold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10426341 oos at 5.22

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10700854 add at 5.22

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10685533 sold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10677526 5.22+wep sold out

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10690059 sold at 5.22

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10441024 adds at 5.33. sold out

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10689675 add and sold at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10586149 oos at 5.22

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10639078 oos at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10620842 add at 5.33. sold out

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10641471 add and sold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10688734 sold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10687913 sold at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10685625 add at 5.44

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10448729 add at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10683279 sold 2. 3 left

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10689675 add and sold at 5.33

the horror so much good proof yet so hrrific.

upvote :c

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10701252 sold at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10701039 sold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/user/329269 sold at least once.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10701319 sold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10441024 add at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10547523 add

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10716326 sold at 5.3

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10688443 oos at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10641397 add at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10688443 oos at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10697983 add at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10716492 sold in less than 1 minute at 5.11 http://puu.sh/2R9LB.png

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10712154 sold all 3

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9813293 willing buyer at 5.33 but owner is oos

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10711914 sold one at 5.33. 3 left

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10639078 2 adds at 5.33. oos

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9182140 add at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10692053 add at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10699604 add at 5.33. oos

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10465851 oos at 5.22

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10699527 add at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10713520 add at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10678502 add at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10714114 sold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10593914 2 adds at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10538562 oos at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10716358 sold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10715602 add at 5.33

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10716458 sold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10713514 sold plenty

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10703017 sold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10631498 oos at 5.33

Well it is a little early to make this suggestion, cleverpun you are warning everyone that are making comments that are RELATED to this but just because they show how bad this site is at key suggestions you warn them and tell them to go to forums which barely anyone uses, you say you warn them because they dont respect the professionalism of the mods and admins we DID at one time but given you go around warning people that doesnt show that you respect us back all you are doing is making yourself look worse by hiding peoples comments that are RIGHT and ON TOPIC. PLEASE do NOT try to hide this I did mention keys so its on topic.

Scroll scroll scroll.....

Getting a headache because I am sick...XP

2 days break :') Someone's getting better at self control :D

no key suggestions were locked

You'll quit a game because of item that doesn't affect game play in any way.

And is basically free all you have to do is craft your free item drops.

And you feel upset that an item backed by cash cost more of another item not backed by cash.

If I choose to buy keys, it's purely out of enjoyment, so it does sort of affect it in a small aspect.

People who are greedy are making it to where I can't buy these keys, uncrate with them and enjoy whatever I get.

You can afford these easily, peering at your backpack, try going a day with my backpack and getting anything B^)

Keys and items dont affect the game. It doesnt make ti less fun or more fun.

People who are greedy arent making them go up. Key re selelrs end up with less profit when they go up because it takes longer to make 1 key profit.

And i started with a bp like yours. I didnt put any money into my backpack or into the game. I am smart and learned how to trade well.

Both of you stay on topic, this is about the price of keys not their value as entertainment or as part of the game.

This is a verbal warning

i still see most keys going for 5 ref. i believe its still early to raise it

Any proof?

get proof yourself, i could careless if you dont believe me

OK, don't back up your statement or anything.

Two bought for 5.22: http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10669672

Added for 5.44: http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10579235

Sir Jon had recommended giving it a week from last accepted suggestion when closing your last one. Have you discussed this with him?

Why would I have to wait when the current range is already off.

Or is he still trying to see if bp.tf influencing the market after the 4.66-5 refined suggestion?(too bad it doesn't as price change 1 day after that).

Everyone stay on topic.

Any comments which attempt to derail the discussion or are off-topic are going to receive a warning, as per the new website rules.

nice!

That especially includes your comments

Dislike my comments if you want, but key suggestions have been a flame magnet for too long.

The new rules clearly state an anti-spam policy, and you had to agree to them to use the suggestion section of the website. It isn't hard to stay civil and on-topic.

"It isn't hard to stay civil and on-topic."

not hard on other suggestions.

but when it comes to key...

Not to be off-topic, but if this has been discussed on the forums Cleverpun, give us a link to the discussion if possible, would you kindly?

Back to the topic now,

About the 5.44 link, can you prove that any of them keys were even sold to one of the sellers for the price, long?

Also, *copies another part of your proof*

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10653616 was an add at 5.22 but now he changed price to 5.33 (about 1 day old trade) Not much actually says that the key was sucessfully sold for the price, also the trade owner was banned for being an alternative account to a gift-wrap scammer who is currently on a valve probation.

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/1285-long218-worlds-largest-hypocrite/

You need to be logged into the forums to view the topic. I don't want to make an account on a forum I don't use just so I can discuss something that is relevant to the suggestion.

Trader who trolls in comments, borderline spams backpack.tf with changing the price of keys, which he was tradebanned for knowingly buying carded keys. Creates a shitstorm every time he puts up a trade, is hated by the entirety of the tf trading community, and is somehow still sometimes accepted by admins dispite the overwhelming hate on his trades? He's good

But the small traders saying how he's ruining backpack.tf and the like? Better crack down on them.

Nice to see you have your priorities straight.

Stay on-topic; this suggestion is for discussing the current price of keys as shown by Long's proof.

If you want to discuss Long personally go to the forums.

This is a verbal warning.

Take it to the forums, this isn't the place for that discussion.

That proof. Upvote 100%.

Dude everyone in the Outpost is obviously selling them .11-.33 higher than the average price. I would understand if it starts to get into a .44 range, but Long's evidence is invalid if they are following a simple economics rule: buy low, sell high.

lol

so if people are able to sold at higher, the price should not rise ?

dat logic bro

I applauded you

Many people buy hats for 1.11-1.22, so hats should fall to 1.22? I don't think so really.

go here http://scrap.tf/hats

and "Many people buy hats for 1.11-1.22, so hats should fall to 1.22? " logc does not really deserve to low price because everybody will want to buy for a lot less and sell it for a normal price or higher. If there are willing buyers at higher, why should the price stay low or in the current price range ? but the same logic does not work with buying because there will always be people that want to pay the normal price.

But you get my point: Buy low, Sell high. Don't play dumb as pretty much every experienced trader knows that rule. I admit that my examples weren't that great, but those are kinda out of my department.

but if they can still sell high then the price still need an increase.

and provides me proof that buy low is an option on key please.

What makes you think that buy high needs a key increase?

and the buy low option is 4.66-5 refined. http://backpack.tf/classifieds/search/key

I would extend the proof, but trading atm...

so you say 4.66-5 and linked me to classified.

the lowest one is 5 ref there.

For some reason, I can't reply to your latest comment so...yeah. I also meant that a quicksell would be an average of 4.66-5. Here come a couple evidence:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10680011

http://bazaar.tf/trade/213727

Those are the couple I found, not an expert on find evidence anyways

what does that have to do with anything ?

you wanted some proof...so I gave some...

YOU REALIZE THAT IF BACKPACK NEVER MOVED THERE PRICE FROM 5 REF, THEY WOULDNT SELL FOR ANY HIGHER RIGHT? IF THE PRESIDENT SAYS HEY GUYS OIL IS GOING TO COST 5 DOLLARS A GALLON NOW, PEOPLE GOING TO SPEND 5 DOLLARS. BACKPACK SAYS SOMETHING IS A CERTAIN PRICE, ITS SUCH A POPULAR SITE THAT PEOPLE WILL BUY FOR THAT PRICE

wut... ._.

"YOU REALIZE THAT IF BACKPACK NEVER MOVED THERE PRICE FROM 5 REF, THEY WOULDNT SELL FOR ANY HIGHER RIGHT? "

do you think backpack.tf is the price police and that everybody must trade by its price ? also, 4.66-5 was accepted once and no one sell at that price still and it still keep increasing.

Caps are a bad way to make a point.

But let's not get off topic, why does "Sell high" needs a price update?

because there are a ton of people successfully sold at the "high price" while you show no proof of "low buyers" bought in order to lower the price

I've shown some proof...

But you said it yourself, if people buy high (because people sell high), then we should increase prices. Just use the same logic, if people sell low (because people buy low), then we should decrease prices. It happens with craft hats all the time, and it really shouldn't, but it makes more sense for people to have higher ranges with keys, there is lower volume.

I accept the backpack.tf logic, but a problem with why keys at sold so high is because when people look for it in game it is much harder to find because of it's lesser accessibility with inflation, so attempt to increase the range. This may have been the case when the price was 2.66, the volume was high, so it made sense if people started increasing the price because they would have no problem to sell or buy otherwise.

Edit: Also, I know there are ways to check the volume of keys, and I really should have done that before commenting.

Ok now I'm done arguing for the day. I would love to stay and argue some more, but I have to do some personal things to do now. Good day to you.

This is an unless loop.

atleast 3.44 :|

http://puu.sh/2emnb (it's a safe link)

^^^ just a small amount of text.

Stay on-topic; this suggestion is for discussing the current price of keys as shown by Long's proof.

If you want to discuss trends go to the forums.

This is a verbal warning

this wasn't off topic in anyway

this is talking about new key price that's what i am doing

and i have a link with small amount of text that anyone could read.

p.s. you kind of have -12 likes :/

Ahh... So it's over 5 ref now. I was talking to you guys about this issue first when keys went over the 3 refined spot. Nobody listened. "YU DONT UNDRRSTAND ANITHING!!" was what I was getting.

It's the same as derivative markets and what the real world banks are doing. The keys are being manipulated higher by select few highrollers, coincidentally owning most of the keys, who trade keys between each other, always rising the price with 1 or 2 scraps - using that to "prove" that there are "buyers" on the market. Let me remind you that they are only doing it for their self-gain. They are not stupid. In fact, they are very clever. They've pretty much found a way to increase the key refined value almost indefinitely with this system. The only thing you can do, is to outrun the market.

On the other hand, those of you who own unusuals, will soon see a nice spike in the "value" of your unusuals, because the price of a key is so ridiculously high, and going ever higher because of highroller manipulators, that nobody uses keys to unbox anymore, which will make existing unusuals (and stranges) more valuable. Genuines & Vintages will soon follow when people understand how rare items they've become and that you absolutely can not get them anymore. That depends how long will it take for them to understand what is happening. All that is craftable will go down, everything else up.

You didn't listen to me the first time I said this.

Maybe you listen now?

PS. Don't expect Long to answer this. He will continue to say the same mantra that a car salesperson would say to manipulate his victims into buying. The point is to say it (and make key suggestions) over and over again so many times that the target is brainwashed into thinking that that is the truth. Has worked well so far, hasn't it.

Thank you for reading and have a nice day again. Trade safe and remember to outrun the market before it's too late.

Stay on-topic; this suggestion is for discussing the current price of keys as shown by Long's proof.

If you want to discuss trends go to the forums.

This is a verbal warning

So now even normal commenting is prohibited?

Good god this place is corrupt.

Your comment may or not be valid, but it is beyond the scope of this suggestion. You are welcome to your opinion but the point of suggestions is to discuss prices and proof, not overarching trends and patterns.

Take it to the forums. We have a number of topics on it, this being the biggest; http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/641-yet-another-key-price-topic-no-flame-wars-please-discussion-only/

Lets say 100k Users use Bp.tf

I bet hardly 1k users take a look at Forums.

100k seems wrong seeing as the whole of tf2's playerbase is only a little above 100k. You're still right though about the forums :3

Why? It's a perfectly on-topic comment.

"et me remind you that they are only doing it for their self-gain."

what the fuck are they gaining by this? refined? which loses more and more value at the same time?

this is stupid.

Well, if they are truely manipulating the market then once they are satisfied they can short sell and force the price down. That, or they can reinvest into unusuals to avoid suspicion and affecting the market in doing so, the unusual prices will adjust to the price of keys, and they can buy in mass at ease.

Evidence is good, but seeing that it is Long it might get ignored and then reposted =/, maybe someone will counter-post.

i don't think there is a lot of transaction in the refined - unusual market.

Keys, buy unusuals in keys, how would that be less suspicious for doing both actions? Btw, the whole suspicion thing is dumb too, either way, sorry for my bad delivery I suppose.

Wait, no, im dumb, unusuals have actual value...

Take it to the forums, verbal warning

But keys AREN'T worth more. Metal is worth less.

I hate that you're right, but you're right. I've seen sales for 5.33 in trade severs and sellers are everywhere on outpost. Enjoy an upvote Long.

Why is it that you want to change the key price? You're banned from outpost and you're not even online on Steam anymore and you don't play TF2 anymore either.

Stay on-topic; this suggestion is for discussing the current price of keys as shown by Long's proof.

If you want to discuss Long personally go to the forums.

This is a verbal warning

I knew it, I knew you were incapable of patience. The wisdom is of you doing this to inflate the value of your (essentially worthless) backpack does not make sense. What I do know is that you constantly doing this in spite of your checkered past, and it increasingly puts scorn onto this site, and makes people question why the site allows you to make the suggestions on keys. Let's review:

-Chief Shoe absolutely loathes you

-Vincent has barred you from key voting once

-cleverpun could care less about you

-Redwall personally closed 2 of your suggestions

-Vincent has banned you at least twice

-You have been given warnings by Vincent and Chief Shoe - repeatedly.

-You have the notoriety of being the first person whose price suggestion was warned by an admin, because you named yourself Key Manipulator for a key suggestion.

Personally, I don't know how many more of these suggestions you will be allowed before the admins decide they have had it with dealing with you.

Stay on-topic; this suggestion is for discussing the current price of keys as shown by Long's proof.

If you want to discuss Long personally go to the forums.

This is a verbal warning

Sir Jon recommended to Long218 that he wait at least a week to make a key vote. Vincent also has referenced the same thing.

recommended.

I don't have to listen to him.

cleverpun's comment has nothing to do with key prices - please self-warn yourself. this is a citizen's verbal warning.

as to long's proof, i'd like to point out that tf2finance has been remarkably stable for a week now around 5.11. in fact if you compare the price average and the volume graphs it actually seems like the high volume trading occurred at lower prices.

I found nothing different between mods hating me and key voters hating me so...

btw, it is "couldn't careless".

Actually, it is couldn't care less. Careless is a different word altogether, meaning uncaring, indifferent, or disregardful. And to stay on topic, Some of the proof is good, but plenty of the counter-proof I have seen is also valid. I feel that the range which keys are currently priced at is just dandy.

This just irritates me so much, it's "Could not care less about you" not "Could care less" - the latter meaning the opposite of what you actually intend on saying... Silly Americans :3

Inb4 SPUF rages because a mod is enforcing logical rules

I don't even buy keys anymore

You failed to do so to Sir Jon's advise "An semi-accurate suggestion has just passed. Give it at least a week before just expanding the range. (unless a major event occurs)". Why did you make another Key Suggestion? If someone sold a key for 5.44 Ref, Should you make a suggestion price for keys to be 5-5.44 Ref for tomorrow? http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9388259

recommended.

I don't have to listen to him.

But you should.

The current range is too low. Situation is already better than it was 2 weeks ago but when there are open buy trades at the "high price" it's because people can't easily find keys at that price.

Those trades existed when the current range was accepted (over a more correct 5-5.33 suggestion). If bp.tf admins are going to select smaller changes for their populist appeal, it's kind of idiotic to then complain there are too many small changes.

Maybe you should because he's assigned to this lol

Hey, cleverpun, you missed a spot! :3

come and get me, you lovable fool! <--- highlight there ;)

Stay on-topic.

This is a verbal warning.

smaller bumps are better if you are going to attempt to raise the price of keys. If keys are truly raising in value, then bump the value once a week (week being the least amount of time in-between suggestions) at the smallest increases possible. Such as 5-5.22 refined, then 5.11-5.22 refined, but allow this wait period in order to truly see if a long term upward trend is still occurring.

There on-topic.

I agree.

We all know what happens when the key price gets changed. Someone (most likely Long) suggests a new price within hours. I think this accelerates the increase. This might not be true.. If people want to sell keys for more, then they'll sell them for more. You might as well try a cool-down period to see what effect it has.

Trade servers can still get at least 5 ref out of a key. I know that people aren't on trade servers 24/7 and instead use outpost or scrap.tf, but surely you could include them as well with outpost proof?

maybe if you want to disprove my suggestion you should be proving counterproof instead of me ?

An semi-accurate suggestion has just passed. Give it atleast a week before just expanding the range. (unless a major event occurs)

Sir J-j-jon [Warrior of Redwall] · modified 2 days ago · Score: 2

This seems more like a command, than a recommendation.

Is this no longer the case cleverpun?

Onto the On-topic part?

http://imageshack.us/a/img842/1879/keysx13.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img402/5995/keysx2.jpg

15 keys bought for 5 refined each

5 refined is still in the range.

And not a single proof of yours includes a 5 refined sale. Just a bunch of outpost traders; because outpost = absolute proof of a range.

On-topic:

Note the times of trade, 2 keys in 20 minutes, on 2 days.

Two more for proof of the second day.

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/6725/keysx22.jpg

Qutie easy to find 5 refined keys and the above proofs show, people who want to buy fast choose to pay higher. fast purchases =/= proof

I didn't include 5 ref because there are a ton of buyers trades at 5 ref that I already listed in my previous suggestions.

Absolutely right, lots of outpost buyer trades of 5 refined out there. I am showing proof of actual 5 refined trades. People who want to pay 5.22+ for a key on outpost, go for it.

Want to pay less, jump onto a trade server. 1 person able to buy 17 keys for 5 refined each in 2 days on trade servers with very little effort. Personally I think that shows alot more about the current market than completed outpost trades of people buying keys fast and conveniently. People generally pay more for convinience, that doesnt mean the price should rise because some people are in a hurry.

im so sorry for cleverpun having to do the "dirty job". ithas to be so bored to control+C

"Stay on-topic; this suggestion is for discussing the current price of keys as shown by Long's proof.

If you want to discuss Long personally go to the forums.

This is a verbal warning"

several times on a minute...

That includes you, stay on topic please.

NO, Keys need to drop, Seriously guys everyone on TF2OP sells key for 5.33 it's TF2OP they have their OWN PRICES.

Why do Keys need to drop?

Just they are raising for no reason what so ever.

The price is rising because traders are paying a specific price.

Wouldn't that be because no one is willing to sell theirs for lower? I mean seriously, why would you sell for lower when everyone is getting more? Do I advocate this behavior? God no.

Traders have no choice, but to pay these amounts at one point. For example, I am trying to cash out and I am buying keys to Paypal out of trading before something catastrophic happens. At first it was 4.88 ref, I was okay with this. Then it became 5 refined, and I was okay because I was still able to buy them. Although, at one point, I couldn't get anymore for 5 refined anymore. Why? People saw it as a lower end and thought, "hey, why would I need to sell for 5 refined, when obviously the range says 5 - 5.11 refined and people are selling successfully at 5.11 refined." I didn't accept this change until a day or two later. At this point, some buyers already accepted 5.11 refined to be normal and sellers caught on and didn't want to sell for 5 refined anymore.

Then 5.11 refined became the norm. People who want to actually use keys to buy items (when traders request only keys and not metal), uncrate, cash out (my case), etc. are forced to accept these nonsense prices at one point. We do it out of time saving or not motivated enough to find them by sitting in servers spamming "buying keys for 5 ref" hours upon hours.

In the end, people are forced to act in a way they didn't desire to help their enjoyment of the game or getting out of a game.

Sorry if this isn't coherent or ordered properly. Too damn tired. SLEEP TIME!

Oh and if this is off topic, Clever, then excuse me. Just tell me "sorry, this is off-topic" and not type "Verbal warning." I kind of don't like how that looks and sounds. :(

what does status assigned means?

i would rtaher make low end 5.11, sells in seconds

When a mod assigns a suggestion, they're in the process of reviewing it prior to accepting/rejecting. Though, as I believe is the situation in this case, sometimes the mod decides more time is needed or that they want another mod to go over it but forget to unassign.

Sure, make a devaluation on anything you want from unusuals to vintage and strange weapons.

However, when you gain a monopoly on controlling the price of the actual currency forms (earbuds and keys), you know, the stuff you use to buy those things, then there's a major problem.

I wonder if I'm a bad person for feeding off the whining and complaining of those high key prices and those who whine about it.

My prices have never gone any higher, 'cause I purchase with real life money... with a job and such. It's always been $2.49 per key, and isn't looking to go up anytime soon. |3

Anyway, staying entirely on topic: Best proof. Upvote.

It seems no matter how much the price rises here people on outpost seem to just raise there prise 2 or 3 scrap at a time. I don't think keys are going to go down at all and they will keep rising unless they make it so no one can vote on keys prices (I doubt this will ever happen)

Ok, this is funny...

In spain, the speculation with the fucking houses and floor prices caused the worst crisis in the spanish history.

All the people were buying houses and selling them, because it will be always someone for buying it at a higher price in a vicious circle.

And then, the vicious circle of buying houses transformed in a vicious circle of crisis.

So, if I put my hat for selling and they offer me 1,22 and the price of the keys its on the atmosphera, i will NOT sell my hat. And if the dropping system doesnt give me hats, i cannot sell my hat. And then, i will cannot buy keys. What should i do then?, If I buy a key in the market another users will not buy it for the same reason.

So, lets make the key price reaches mars and fuck the trade up.

With the F2P its even more difficult to play. And now with the keys will be more difficult to trade. So, what now? What game should I play next, CoD?

(btw, sorry for my bad english)

Please stay on topic

I honestly don't see how many of these are off topic, including this one. It's straight on the topic.

this suggestion is for discussing the current price of keys as shown by Long's proof.

If you want to discuss trends go to the forums, they are beyond the scope of this suggestion.

We had to admit the fact when keys were at a stable price that there is always THAT GUY that is known for selling things even higher than the average. One reason why these people made profit was because they were online and easily available at the time the trader wants to buy the keys (I bought a few keys for 3 ref ~November 2012 when in a rush to unbox, when 2.88 was the norm). Aside from that, these people's trades are used as proof on backpack.tf, and the price rises! As people were beginning to use backpack.tf for reference (hence the lowballs on unusual trades), and thus decided to follow the price posted, while THAT GUY once again bumps his price, thus repeating the cycle. Basically, this is going to keep happening until we either get our facts straight or the price becomes unacceptable.

The amount of keys he owns is irrelevant. He can't trade them since he's trade banned

if people are still selling at 5.22, why 5.33?

outpost just has people looking to always make a profit, if you keep on basing the price like that, keys will continue to rise forever..

"Wait a week before making another" - Sir John on the last accepted price.

Makes another after three days.

Nice listening skills.

For the 253th time, he can't trade (trade ban), he says "I am trying to make the price more accurate to the market," etc etc.

Wow, did I say "253th." I am retarded, 253RD. xD

What is stopping him from selling his whole account?

There are collectors for items that don't work, 642 keys would be a nice display piece.

If you buy an account for just that, I think you have more problems than the people who pay 115 ish buds x $35 (That being REAL MONEY) for a Burning Team Captain.

Also, why would he just want to lose all those games? It does seem that he doesn't play any of them really in the first place though.

And to be clear, selling your account a violation of the Steam agreement. That account will be banned immediately after that. And guess what? Kiss those already useless keys further goodbye.

Really? The price is already insanely high, now he wants it to go up again? This is ridiculous.

I understand that some jerk wants to self-profit more by increasing the prices before cashing out on all that keys, but I would have thought that the admins of backpack.tf would stop, or at least urge, Long from doing so.

Apparently, all these so-called admins are just agreeing with Long, so that their backpack values can rise along with the keys.

Can you guys, just for a minute, think about what would actually happen if keys went to 10 ref? Probably takes a month. Only a month.

How the hell is ANYONE going to earn keys to unbox or spend? The entire economy will collapse. The rich gets rich temporarily, the poor gets poorer. Only a matter of time before no one will buy unusuals or promos because they rose so much in price that there really is no one, except these corrupt people rising keys prices, who can afford them.

You think you're bp value will increase just because you rise keys? This is going to be TF2's Great Depression. I can feel it.

Cleverpun. I lost all respect for you. I thought you were a better admin than this. Now what are you doing? Giving people "warnings" just because they commented something about the danger of the key inflation.

I give up.

I don't agree with some warnings either, I got one by telling the suggester to post proof, or else people would downvote it.

On key suggestions,SERIOUSLY,STOP EVEN PUTTING PROOVES.This is why keys have rised so much and continuing to.Even if you do put prooves, put them from a website which is actually smart and doesn't scam.Outpost is so full of people who have the highest prices.If you look at outpost and put it as a proof,this will keep happening.

1.Put key suggestion as 5-5.11.

2.Gets accepted because last suggestion was 4.99-5 ref and prooves include people on outpost who sell keys for just like 1 scrap more.

3.New key of price is 5-5.11.

4.Outpost sells it for 5.22 because its outpost.

5.New key suggestion; 5.11-5.22/5-5.22(which starts ranging arguements)

6.Gets accepted because has prooves including people at Outpost who sell at 5.22.

Above, was just written how keys rised from 2.33 refs to 5.11 refs.

It's mainly because of Outpost.

Who has rich people that wants keys to rise so they think their items are more precious,but actually their items values get worse.(because ref is actually more important than keys.If not,keys wouldn't be priced as ref.And ref gets less valued when key's are higher as refs.Example:If keys were 1 ref,ref=key.If keys are 2 ref,ref=key/2)

So if you dont stop believing Outpost and making keys price-one of the most important elements in TF2-dependant on Outpost idiots,the economy will simply DIE.

Incoming Long's comment: "Then it isn't reflecting accurate market price." -.-

a little bit of light reading for you

http://tf2finance.com/2013_03/

It puts to rest your theory of a scrap increase.

http://www.tf2wh.com/item.php?id=5021;6;2007c65ba3d3acb661e57ee5550676fc

Bought like, 11,000 keys for 14400 each which is like 4.77 ref.

Sup. Downnvoottingg causee I honestly am having no trouble, whatsoever, at 5 ref.

Could you post proof of having no trouble at 5 ref? For instance screenshots of your trade history which show you getting keys for 5 ref recently. Key suggestions always contain a lot of people claiming things, but if none of them offer proof we're still getting nowhere.

Proof shown in my post above, 2 instances of purchasing 2 keys at 5 refined, within 20 minutes, and another of purchasing 13 keys at 5 refined. How many keys does one person need to show being bought.

Can someone tell me why a guy who is tradebanned is making suggestions for trading prices?

To try to keep it on topic, I've only seen keys go as high as 5.22 on trade servers. Buying prices are about 5.

The 1 week waiting period was just a suggestion not a demand.

Having been said, there is definitely proof that 5.33 trades are happening. I will still be leaving this up for another day to look at trades because tf2finance is only hovering around 5.1.

Toooooooo easy to buy them for 5.11ref and that's it. Not enough proof for 5.33 because it's the goddamn tf2 currency. Deal w/ it. (n)

Lots of trades i see regarding keys have one thing in common.

They sell and buy keys.

And LOTS of trades i find buy keys for 5 or bellow, BUT sell then for 5.33 or more.

By that logic the key price should lower to 5 not raise.

You have ruined TF2 trading I hope you are happy. All for some stupid rep on a website.

ive sold about 5-8 keys today for 5.33 ref each

HOLY FUUUU EPIC PROOFS ;) THE ONLY PROBLEM IS: WHY ARE KEYS ALWAYS RISING? ;(

UPVOTE

why couldnt it have stayed AT 2.00 like it was a long long time ago

things change... why not complain about the other 100's of items that change

Because you don't see unusuals/weapons getting a price change suggestion every day do you no? And the more Long makes suggestions and the more they get accepted the richer he gets and that's all he cares about.

ye some guy with a locked account cares about how rich he is

I'm not joking I'm telling the truth. Also Long(Guy who made this suggestion) is very professional isn't he? http://i.imgur.com/MI9HryY.jpg

guys he has lots of proof. just because you don't want key prices to go up doesn't mean you have to downvote this. this is about right and get's my upvote. face it guys

watch this have 9001 dislikes

And you Have 250~ Hours in Tf2

I don't even downvote/upvote bp.tf suggestions anymore because what's the point of voting if the votes don't even do anything at all? Everything is up to the admins and what the admins want not what the community wants. And personally Long/Hatch and all the others seriously make a suggestion get it accepted and then 30 minutes later making a new one bumping the price up 2-3 scrap. This site is really getting outta hand if you ask me.

> "Everything is up to the admins and what the admins want not what the community wants"

this

I think that the veto of few admins is a way much easier for price manipulating than the vote of an entire community...

I liked this site very much cause I thought that users could really change prices by voting, but it doesn't seems so, indeed...7

And all this warning-abuse method is deleterious because real spam came only after you warned lots of people for expressing their idea and not just "good upvote" or "bad downvote"

Actually compared to previous key suggestions this is still an improvement

Where does the other side of checks and balances come into play? I see the admins' abilities to check the community, but does the community have a way to check the admin decisions?

You want long version? Alright, I'll repeat the long version again;

Votes, proof, and mods are all part of a system of checks and balances. None of them have total control over the other, because that is how checks and balances are supposed to work.

On the vast majority of accepted suggestions the voters, proof, and mods all agree with each other, and it is those suggestions are easiest to accept and defend after the fact.

People don't vote rationally on key suggestions, and this is why we can't rely on that check when moderating key suggestions. This is one of several reasons why key suggestions take so much time to moderate; we don't have the voters to back up our decision, so there is more strain put on the other checks (mods and proof).

No one is perfect, but I think the current system works very well. If people could bring themselves to be objective when voting on currencies there wouldn't be any problem.

Ah, that clears it up. Thanks.

We also have a way for people to publicly review admin decisions here;

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/75-guidelines-for-suggestion-question-threads/

what does this have to do with long's suggestion you friggin hypocrite????

Let me be clear about why keys are going up so fast.

It's not only because of Long's fault that key's price raised from 2.66 to 5.22 refineds in about 8-10 months, it's also the fault of a big part of the TF community.

- There's the idiots who keep raising thier keys' prices to cash in the metal and get hats plus the idiots that dosen't know the market price.

- There's the staff/mods/whoevertheyare that accepts the prices suggestion without noticing the negativity of each key price rising and the fact that not all users of the game have keys.

- There's the morons who think that it's a good idea to rise the key's price up AND only refers to Outpost. (Or Long himself. c: )

- And the list goes on.

So basically, it's almost every traders that should be blamed, not just Long.

And I'm not trying to release a decoy to help Long, I'm just trying to make realize some shitholes that what they are doing is making them more stupid than they should be.

That's it.

And to end this message, I'm dropping this here.

http://i.imgur.com/l9d7r4i.png

now if I don't get any rep i'm hanging myself ;-;

Stay on topic, verbal warning

Both the suggestion and my comment is about the same subject : key's price raising.

What's off-topic about that?

"lost all of its respect and credibility" because they accept good suggestions with good proof even when the voters become manipulators and just vote for their own profit.

righttttttttttt

agree, people with suspicious reputation in steam rep..make keys sugestion seem legit..

Can we stop using Outpost as a source? Just because one site sells keys for 1,000 refined doesn't make it worth that much.

except 99% of the trades happen there.

Got lots of counter proof for other source sites with active trades?

Otherwise outpost rules the prices

The current trend in keys, as reflected in the finance website is showing an equilibrium plateau of 5.11 keys. A significant slope or change is not seen. I refuse to accept this suggestion. Sure the market is destabilizing with a very large range of prices from 5.22 buying all the way to 5.66 selling. This suggestion must correlate to what the market is averaging.

And as for the pricing changes, sellers will always increase their price to anticipate inflationary changes, because sellers are benefiting. But speculation is not my kind of thing.

Some of these links may have sold out by the time you get to them. Keep in mind however that keys are probably the most traded TF2 item. They will always sell quickly at market price. I am just trying to show that if you refresh Outpost a couple times there are enough to be found at 5.22 that I think raising the range to 5.33 is unnecessary, despite the occasional successful trade at that amount. In my opinion (because I can hardly actually prove this) you will always be able to sell keys eventually for a scrap or two scraps above what is considered market price, as many people want them and many of these people are impatient or do not care about getting a good price, they just want a key and they want it now. Anyway.

Sellers below 5.22

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10702857 5 ref (oh dear)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10703232 another 5 ref one what

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10703506 more 5 ref, done in one minute

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10703835 5 ref. I'm getting concerned.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10703916 5 ref. The economy is getting destroyed right under our eyes.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10704478 5 ref. I- I give up.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10704561 5 ref. Why does it keep happening.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10704455 5.11

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10703556 5.11

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10702181 5.11, out of stock quickly though

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10700705 5.11 + one weapon

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10703448 5.11

Sellers at 5.22 Unless otherwise noted all were in stock.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10519729 Currently out of stock.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10685047

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10703099

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10702684

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10702664

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10656999

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10637698

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10623500 out of stock

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10426341

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10681865

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10701372

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10700032

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10563026

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10703408

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10275592

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10703478

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10680747

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10704107

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10704243

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10704526

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10704649

And to conclude,

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10563438 3 for 16 ref, with autobump, unsold after 6 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10563438 comment say deal.

and 5.33 is not occasionally. there are a lot of successful sellers at 5.33.

I counted at least 70 sold proof at 5.33.

I saw that, but that's one comment four days ago and since then nothing, I'd hardly call that successful for this particular item, especially if the price is supposed to be market price.

I don't think we're going to agree on the amount of 'successful' (ymmv) 5.33 sellers really. I'll leave it up to the admins.

comment does not mean everything as I sold stuff before without any comment posted. a better way is to check metal in the person backpack

That means even less; there's no way to tell where the metal came from, what it was paying for, and how old the trade is.

alright, here i have a glorious thing called COUNTERPROOF:

Buyers at lower than 5 ref:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10561134

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10314506

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10693106

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10513491

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/7492799

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/6722347

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10212118

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10651749

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8616539

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10682733

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10683927

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10635052

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10475177

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10340967

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10500323

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10192791

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8364777

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/7111440

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/6926677

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/5324812

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9477043

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/7576647

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/4926251

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/2411668

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10486339

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10158797

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10154890

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9813644

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9731997

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8413850

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8100692

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8084251

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10342495

I'm sorry to rain on your parade but for buying trades you'll need to show they are successful - e.g. recent comments on the trade saying 'added', steady increase of keys in backpack, and so on. If you compiled a list of that that'd be fantastic (include for how much they are buying after each link), I honestly can't bring myself to look at buying trades too right now (for which I am sorry).

ohh okay, thanks for the tip, ill take that into consideration next time i provide counterproof :)

So if all buyers try to buy a key for a weapon, than it's worth a weapon?

well the chances of that happening are near impossible

but it depends if a price voting would pass it

It's impossible because even the buyers know it's way too low. All those buyers you listed are just low ballers, until you can actually prove that they can buy at their listed price

okay so this whole counterproof thing is alot more complex than i thought, and correction: 75% are lowballers XD

If scrap.tf shows that keys are going up, then it's invalid, and it can't be trusted. When it's lower than a suggested price, suddenly it's amazing counterproof?

Scrap.tf is never valid proof. People go there to pay for convenience.

TF2Finance is never valid proof. There are known ways to manipulate it and its process is not transparent.

Derp xD I meant finance not scrap.tf, got them confused ^_^. I was just saying that cuz there were people using finance as counter proof, since it was showing an average lower than this suggestion. And i found it ironic how those same people get mad if finance is used as a guideline to raise the price

Hold on, can I get a source on the manipulating tf2finance bit? It's something I've seen thrown around in key suggestion comments, but I've never seen it happen or anyone demonstrate doing so.

I'd like to see proof too. Oddly enough I don't think I've seen people complain about the key/bud or bud/cash graphs it has, only the key/metal one. Either way I think people make that claim mostly because the exact way of calculating TF2Finance is unknown; the only way I can think of manipulating it is quickly opening and closing key trades to make it look like they sold, though I don't know if TF2finance looks at item histories too to check if keys changed backpacks (that'd be great and prevent a lot of manipulating I think).

As far as I'm aware base1024 - who runs it - is overall a very respected person in the community. He posts on reddit and has his Steamprofile linked so it's not like it's run by someone anonymous as the Spreadsheet is/was.

Cleverpun, why must you be such a nuisance. I feel you have gotten power hungry, you have hidden some comments that don't even need to be hidden.

I may have mis-warned some comments, and those that feel they didn't deserve one are welcome to add me. I have read all 256 comments on this suggestion and i am not perfect.

I am not power-hungry, but I AM tired of the consistent lack of respect and professionalism present in this community.

http://backpack.tf/stats/5021/6/0

This handy graph shows more or less the beginning of backpack's reign of madness on key prices. I noticed that on this graph ( http://tf2finance.com/keys/ ), the price spikes for the first time in about late October. This is when Backpack started overtaking the infamous spreadsheet, if I remember correctly. Unfortunately, this "community" pricelist is completely modified by admins, so it's really not much better than the spread sheet. But that is another debate.

In any case, backpack and the admins here have made a huge difference on the key pricing. Suggestions with -800 should never pass.

Edit: Fixed a url

You're right, it is another debate, one that is beyond the scope of this suggestion.

Take it to the forums

Also another thing. Can we not just put a freeze on key suggestions. Nobody in the community wants keys to rise anymore you can see by these comments. It's stupid. Proof is understandable, but when it is so negatively received surely that should mean that the price should not be accepted.

if everybody think tax, gas, and food prices should freeze/lower would they be lower ? no.

Those are things in the real world. They are a little different no? TF2 is a game with a community. The community should decide the prices rather than a few select people.

Tax is controlled by a country's government. If the party in control pisses of the population, they won't get voted in again, at least in most democratic societies. Plus, this is a more or less lawless, virtual, scammer hub called tf2, so bringing the price of gas, food and taxes into it is very much irrelevant.

Remember kids, Always compare things in a video game to things in real life.

Oh and keys and junk

Stay on topic, all of you.

This is a verbal warning.

this is on topic. the guy want people to believe in his conspiracy of how pricing work but I want to provide example to disprove it.

replying to an off-topic comment with an off-topic comment is not in any way on-topic

Long, correction. You are NOT on topic. It's a simple request that this guy is asking for, for the key suggestions wait at least a week before making a new one. Blindly shouting CONSPIRACY THEORY only makes you look bad.

Is it so unreasonable for you to actually heed the advice of Redwall and wait on making key suggestions for at least a week? It is not the end of the world if you actually wait to make a new suggestion on keys.

If you are so hellbent on raising the price of keys, even if Redwall says you need to WAIT ONE WEEK.... you seriously need to disengage from making suggestions.

There's more to life than constantly pricing a bunch of pixels higher for your own benefit

I was on topic of the rising of keys which is what this suggestion is for.

That has been discussed before, and it is still being discussed.

The tf2 economy moves quickly, however, so if it was implemented it would need to be in a way that does not damage the usability of the site

Please note that his proof is purely biased on the sellers only and none of the buyers, hit ctrl+f type in lu7ky and hit previous or next until you find my long list of the top buyers

Also in reference to long, tax is decided by a country/province/state's deficit

Alberta has no PST (provincial sales tax) as we have no debt, tax is in no way decided by the people, food has no tax as it is a necessity, virtual items have no tax as they are not physical and take nothing to produce. *(excluding design and the 1 time creation)

You may find this interesting. Admitting to raising prices.

http://i.imgur.com/l9d7r4i.png

Edit: BB Code for [img] doesn't work.

So uhh how long do you guys think it will take until backpack smartness up?

that's like asking how long will take until keys go down

This community is full of capable, intelligent people. If they need a few gentle reminders of the rules then I am willing to help them with that

Why on earth did you warn your own comment may i ask?

People use this site constantly, why not just stop using it ? It really only takes a few people to do something to cause something bigger. If everybody stops using it then nobody would have to deal with this shit. We gotta stop feeding it, we gotta stop coming to this site.

stop the spam. There is this group called "savethetf2keys". Go complain there.

Save the tf2 keys members have been banned from commenting, thus quelling any chance of keys going down.

It's spam?

I'm not good at english. but, I can't under why my comment is spam!

I only say to seller. do you want keys price higher and higher?

do you still want keys prices are go 10ref, 20ref, ...?

Backpack.tf records the most accurate price possible.

if it goes to 10 refined, so be it.

So don't Press X Buttons? :(

Ahh..

Do you mean, don't say "Stop key price vote!" ?

I've gotten 8 @ 5 ref in the last few days: http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10642773

You know the only way to really set price is to massively increase the range.

Find out what the lowest people will sell them at and the highest people will pay.

4.77-5.55?

hoo boy.

Well yes, that is what I suggest and in no way do I think it is the best solution

It can't be any worse than whats going on though can it?

As thanks for not bashing me you receive a like and I suggest you read the comment directly below this.

After a few minutes of thinking, what is not needed is a key price drop

but a key price halt. Followed by a slow turn around. Don't want a stock market crash.

After re-reading my own post I misunderstood myself.

Lowest SELLER , highest BUYER

so basically an inverse 5.11-5.00 (not 100% accurate as I need more data)

ok long, listen up I am gonna make this real simple for you:

I see you have proof of sellers @ 5+ and I will not dispute that

I however have proof, the ENTIRE first page of searching for key BUYERS excluding anything under 4 ref each and NOTHING exceeds 5.11

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9058039

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10628947

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10592434

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10444885

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10525441

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9058039

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/7616351

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10709037

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10703419

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10327515

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10711072

Waited 20 seconds here is another full page excluding anything below 4 ref

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10703301

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10642773

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10572845

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10237630

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10226913

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9070570

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8074439

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10688600

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10511998

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10711185

Third full page with first buyer above 5.11

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9609901

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10631368

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10493624

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10409899

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10517618

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10707606 - FIRST guy to be paying more than 5.11 but purely for resell

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10293352

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10607577

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10606674

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10667743

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10641389

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/6519947

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10691796

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10680370

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10679893

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10241323

Anybody at all, I am a paranoid man and this post may be hidden soon so take a pic and put it online.

all unsuccessful, unfortunately. Nice try, but some idiot decided to dislike to frame me :/

Well, its the theory of what will we pay not what will we sell at. It kind of works like an auction, you don't see people saying... "Ok, Let's start the bidding at 500$ on this 475$ item. It's more like 400, 425, 450, 475, and so on possibly to 500".

Also some were successful at this price, not very but did buy some within 3 hours of their post. *(one of the new ones was less than a day old)

Funny that you found me trade there! Also trying to prove that it is still possible to get a key for the price i am offering.

Cleverpun, can YOU stay on topic? This isn't just about some price change; this is about keys inflating to the extent of the possibility of no one wanting to trade in TF2 anymore!

These "proofs" Long give in large quantities are all example of the common rule, buy low sell high! I don't see why you, cleverpun, support this key inflation. So your bp value will rise?

All this is doing is making keys harder to get, and in a month, NO ONE IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO USE KEYS AT ALL, because of this HILARIOUS price Long has implemented just so he can CASH OUT A COUPLE HUNDRED MORE BUCKS FOR HIS BANK ACCOUNT.

I am not hating or anything, and I am trying my hardest to not be rude. However, such an obvious price manipulation like this should have been stopped by backpack.tf admins from the start, but it is just getting worse. Hell, this suggestion is even ASSIGNED by some corrupt admin!

And please stop giving these so-called "verbal warnings" to me and other people trying to help this TF2 economy because apparently we are not "staying on topic". Cleverpun, YOU stay on topic. This price suggestion will be leading to even more suggestions, and you, as the backpack.tf admin, are just going to sit there and do nothing?

I don't blame Long for the rise of keys. He is just some jerk who wants to cash out more on TF2. I blame the backpack.tf admins for allowing this to happen. Aren't you guys supposed to be controlling these corrupt people? Aren't your roles as admins supposed to keep everything in order? But what are you doing now? HELPING these greedy people manipulate keys prices.

The ONLY reason why these "proofs" of people buying and selling keys for high prices is because of the key inflation caused by Long. Otherwise, no one will give a crap about paying this much for keys. Admins, I, with probably 95% of the traders out there, propose that you stop this key inflation now.

Upvote this comment to show your support.

Hey, also please take note of the fact his "proof" is ALL sellers and NO buyers. Biased numbers are worse than no numbers.

You have failed at your goal of not being rude. If you can't be civil I'm going to ban you for a day.

Suggestions are moderated by single admins, and we self-select what to work on. Once Sir Jon assigned the suggestion to himself I lost any official power over it, though the admins can and do collaborate on large decisions.

I have both rejected and accepted key suggestions in the past--I have no personal stake in their price and I do my best to be objective when moderating prices. All admins do. If you're going to accuse one of us of corruption you had better have a lot of evidence to support it, otherwise you're just making yourself look ignorant and petty.

There are many market forces in place besides our price listings. Saying bp.tf is solely responsible for key prices is just as foolish as accusing admins of corruption; without evidence it only makes you look bad.

If you truly think the suggestion is wrong provide counterproof instead of standing on your soapbox.

All the warnings are for people discussing trends and speculating and whining instead of addressing the suggestions itself.

This is not Facebook. You don't say 'upvote for support'.

I've gotten a number of keys for a range of 4.88-5.11 ref with little hassle.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10708084

http://i.imgur.com/CVqCwHh.png

http://i.imgur.com/kJbM5cm.png

http://i.imgur.com/Bwuf6zu.png

http://i.imgur.com/d2CUEsQ.png

Easy downvote. Current price is fine.

Thank you, keep the proof coming. Mine is evidence not proof I'm sorry.

4.88 does not prove anything anymore since the range already passed that. also it the only one

5 ref is still in the range.

also, 5 proof against 80+ proof ?

You're still ignoring the fact the a really large majority of trades happen at 5-5.11 ref rather than 5.22-5.33. Your proof is really one sided.

I do not see any deleted posts which fit that criteria.

If you can give me the person's screen name I will review their comments and warning.

I don't understand how you get those outpost proofs if you're banned there?

You can take long amounts of time not using the search feature while not logged in.

He may of course have alternate accounts

yea, probably.

Steamrep lists alts

Ok, please hide mine now if you see fit, just wanted to provide answers to questions of curiosity with my limited knowledge

yea, he has 2 listed alts on SR and they're also banned lol oh, long, still trying to avoid bans.

they did change the rules so i wouldnt call it mod abuse but it doesnt seem like (here comes a 'take it to the forums' warning) a good way to contain problems like this key suggestion getting out of hand.

as for the proof, what should we do? if this wasnt current long218 it could get accepted, but he doesnt take the admin's advice. should i (please note im not going to contribute, by upvoting/downvoting on key suggestions, i dont wanna be part of the problem) upvote because i know the proof could be (saying 'could be' due to the mess of proof throughout the comments, ive yet to go through all that proof anyway, another reason not to vote) accurate shows what the community is doing or should i downvote simply because theres a huge chance the admins/mods are acknowledging that long218 is good at making accurate suggestions yet cant handle himself when it comes to keys?

in many suggestions, proof can speak for itself, however keys are a whole different thing now. long, mattie, hatch, can make decent/accurate suggestions but the moment they touch the price of keys they receive so much hate (please dont reply giving me reasons why contributors/voters have good reason to dislike them so strongly, im aware of some but not all issues) is this really what we should be doing?

oh well, i just wont vote, regardless of accurate proof or me being biased (no i dont like what long218 has done to the trading community but that doesnt mean i wont vote on his other suggestions. i just think he should take the admins' advice because if this:[url]http://i.imgur.com/l9d7r4i.png[/url] doesnt speak for itself or long just doesnt even have self-respect then why is he allowed to continue to make suggestions on keys?) we cant even handle the price of keys.

also before i get warned *cough-as if all that up there^^ wasnt related to this-cough-cough* then here: "Oh and keys and junk."

Owns: 642

LEGIT AS FUCK

Anyway. Downvote because I disrespect outpost trades over their horrible Lowballing when buying things and highballing when selling things.

+ They ruin the economy

and where to get proof then?

Everywhere, but not on TF2Outpost. The site itself is good. The Community is crap. The sore reason we have 5 Ref Key prices is because Douchebags on Outpost increase their Key prices by 0.11-0.22 of backpack.tf price. And then backpack.tf goes increasing the value up to 0.11-0.22. And that keeps happening and happening.

talking talking talking

no proof of these selling for less or need to bump down in price.

Haven't been able to buy keys for less than 5.11 in a while. Upvoted.

and why is your bp private?

how are key prices still going up? and by the way, these these are common oversells, happens on almost every item ever.

Why raise the price of key? It's stupid! It must be down for not costet trade!

Remember that the key was costing 2,55 in October!

Look at the graph in the link:

http://backpack.tf/stats/5021/6/0

It's rising because key sellers buy for 5 ref sell for 5.11 ref and so on everyone make 1 scrap profit till it increases by refs :(

Keys were starting to rise by October. Also, how is a value from seven months ago relevant now? Call it inflation, manipulation or whatever else you would like but values can change significantly during that time. To your comment itself, I don't know what a "costet" trade is so can you convince me that this is the case (preferably with evidence if possible)?

Upvote, I got like 2 adds in a week when buying at 5ref.

people are already selling keys for 5.66

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10716458

got like 10 adds today buying at 5.33

*selling

QUOTE

Owns: 642

LEGIT AS FUCK

Anyway. Downvote because I disrespect outpost trades over their horrible Lowballing when buying things and highballing when selling things.

+ They ruin the economy

L-r | Snowy · posted about 3 hours ago · Score: 1

I totally agree. This guy has that many keys he can force the market and make it appear as though prices are rising. all he has to do is give some keys away to people and have them ghost selling and buying to force the market upwards by increasing each price..

"keys away to people and have them ghost selling and buying to force the market upwards by increasing each price.."

lol.

ghost selling: 100+ trades with over 150 keys ? lel.

and that not even the entire market reflection.

guys does the fact that he is trade banned and has 642 keys have anything to do with this trade?

It's a suggestion, not a trade.

This guy is constantly pushing the keys up. He voted the keys up since this "inflation" started....and ofc he claims that it doesnt have to do with him owning ~640Keys.

Also thanks to the admins who abuse their rights to censore critical voices.

He can't trade those keys

who it believes...

http://i.imgur.com/MI9HryY.jpg Yeah.

Valve can and has reversed tradebans, and it's not unlikely he has alts with lots of keys. Not that I think that is relevant; I think the quote in the image speaks more, really, as far as we're concerning ourselves with personal attacks instead of proof.

I wanted to sell 2 keys for 5.11, got added by four people in 35 seconds:

http://puu.sh/2RhV5.jpg

Inventory history:

http://puu.sh/2Rib0.png

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10443491

bot trading at 5.22/5.33

seems to move a lot of keys

Keys seem to be getting higher and higher... But I have to agree on this price

To quote Chief "OH LAWD SAVE THE ECONOMY". In other news, off-topic, this is a verbal warning.

On topic proof that this range is correct:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10536514

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10538100

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10723430

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10725930

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10718260

Some of the links appears to be invalid. Third link appears to be unsold, the last two links together with the third link carries little proof that they were actually sold(if the third link was even sold) for the actual price. Can you bring up proof that the links i mentioned actually were sold in the suggested range?

IMO it doesn't matter how much proof anyone has, Long shouldn't be making suggestions about keys because he has so many, and naturally his opinion will be biased because of that.

So over the past few days Tf2finance has barely broken past 5.11, and has never reached 5.16 which would be the suggested ranges mid. However, this is what I see on outpost and in links:

----------> 5.00

>

> Sells extremely fast once its listed, many many buyers at this price.

> ( http://trade.tf/fair/search/Sell/Unique/Mann%20Co.%20Supply%20Crate%20Key/None/1 )

>

----------> 5.11

>

> Sells pretty fast still, fewer buyers at this price but enough.

>

----------> 5.22

>

> Sells fine on the seller side as proven by this suggestion but doesnt sit around as much as 5.33

>

----------> 5.33

>

> Sells but sits around alot, I see plently for 5.33 on outpost and unsold stocks in links.

Doesnt look like 5.33 should be in range yet, but also 5 refined is now pretty much a quicksell, everybody is willing to pay that price.

5.11-5.22 is the sweet spot. Resuggesting for this price

***NOTICE*** FOR FUTURE KEY SUGGESTIONS:

- Do NOT suggest a new price range for keys until 3 days have past since the last increase,

- ***EXCEPT*** if a major event has occurred that has changed to price radically.

- ***OR*** if you do not agree with the last change, you may suggest to revert back with supporting proof & arguments.

- Do NOT suggest a new price range for keys that is only a .5 scrap difference from the last suggestion. We do not need this constant spamming of .5 scrap changes.

- ***EXCEPT*** if the price has been stable for ~7 days and only a small change is needed.

add me to talk before closing this.