Suggestion: Bill's Hat at 7.8–8 keys

Price Suggestion

Bill's Hat

Submitted Sun, 26 May 13 19:15:05 +0000 by ★ Mardik🔻

38.46%

8 keys

7.8–8 keys

272

~3.68 keys

1138 votes up

1821 votes down

Related Suggestions

This suggestion was closed Thu, 30 May 13 12:05:56 +0000 by neverclever.

Comments can no longer be left on this suggestion.

Comments

I noticed something in the past couple of days, people see the Red Arrow on the key suggestion, they upvote like crazy, they see Green Arrow on keys, they downvote like crazy, same here, bill's with red arrow ? Downvote without even seeing.

FIRST READ, READ, READ

Yes, there is another suggestion on, 7.5 is way to broad and counter suggestions are acceptable.

Bill's Hat, one of the most popular hats known in the Team Fortress 2 Economy, Bill's have been 8 keys stable since a lot of time and i respect that, however, nearly all the promo items did infact change. Let's us have a flashback, Buds changed ? A lot. / Big Kill changed ? A lot. / Max changed ? Yes. / Holiday Headcase changed ? Yes / and all the rest of the promo items, so the question is, why not bill's ? I know, people buy for 8 keys, somewhere in a bot handled website that you have to pay for them and wait for ever to buy/sell the items, they still get sold for 8 but they are having a little tiny bit of trouble doing so.

Also please, comments are welcome, but curse, swear because if you do, you will make yourself look like the 10 years old kids in my school who says bad words to look cool. Also, please try not to involve comments that include, "Bill's are 8 keys because they are 8 keys" they are not anymore, get over it.

Anyhow let me Quote Vincent. "So, no, Black/White Bill's unsolds at 10 keys should not be used as proof for 7.8-8 keys, nor should available 9 key Black/White Bill's be used as 'selling under current price'. If there are regularly available Black/White/TS Bill's at 8 keys, then there's something to talk about." Done, wont do that.

He adds "Buyers are okay to use, but the majority focus should be on sellers. It's where the bulk of trades occur." Seller, check, unsolds,check, buyers, check.

Without further introduction

well well well, guess who is back, the other suggestion uses 7.5 which i believe is low, so, let's do this again :-

This proof is the one i collected from 2 days, some links may be sold and all, won't change them but will post more down "some may be dupes sorry about that"

Proof from Yesterday + Today Of successful buyers/sellers for less than 8

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10387517 buyer for 7 keys 3 ref, many adds including painted ones, yes painted for less than 8, still dont count ?

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9299565 offer 8 keys on pink bill's

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9953011 (lots of bill's in backpack) also got adds

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10383906 7.5 keys for VoT bill's

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10443271 offer of 14 keys on 2 black bill's // adds for white @8 // 7.25 Vot add

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/6055665 TS bill's add for 8 // 7 keys 4 ref plain bill's offer

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10510562 TS bill's 8 keys offer

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10542613 added for 3 bill's @ 7.4 keys

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10976090 added for white @8 // offered TS @8

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/7432201 many adds includes TS + BaF for 16 // black bill's for 7 add

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/4133714 added for 7

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10666662 added for white @8 // Ts offer @8

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10177482 8 keys for TS offer taken down (lol)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8615338 8 keys gold // TS offers'

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11072120 TS offer of 8

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10675230 8 keys of after eight

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11085214 selling for 7 omg omg omg

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11005847 accepted 6 keys 9 ref offer

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10970781 selling for 7 keys 4 ref 5 days unsold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11132398 selling for 7 keys 4 ref

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11182276 selling for 7 keys 3 ref

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11007853 selling for 7.5 keys

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11066705 will take 7.8/7.7 keys

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11044138 4 days

Proof from Yesterday:

Now some UNPAINTED unsolds (youngest one is 3 days ago)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10791372 1 week

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10973684 5 days ago someone says added, no trade

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10844936 1 week

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11012184 4 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11003463 4 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10718639 1 week

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10929731 6 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11050895 3 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11041932 3 days someone added but no keys in the adder bp

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11045021 3 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11033388 3 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10979953 5 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11002123 4 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10979262 5 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10623019 2 weeks

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10794415 3 for 8 each, 1 week non sold

I didnt double check the links, would take so much time.

Anyhow, this is some proof i got at time of posting "some links may be duplicated from the above links"

Unsolds unpaited @8 time of posting (least day is 3 days ) (only 10 pages on outpost w/no piant, woah)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11082484 3 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11045021 4 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10794415 1 week

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11041932 4 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11104974 3 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11113244 3 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11070133 3 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10040851 a month

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11114270 3 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10939398 a week

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10623019 2 weeks

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10973208 6 days, only sold 1 green for 8

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11003463 5 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11072177 3 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10786801 1 week

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11033388 4 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9694733 month

rest are Unbumped from day+

Classified from Yesterday + Today

http://imgur.com/jWSWbWC 1 painted bills for 7.75 / unpainted for 7.79 (lol) / low paints @8

http://imgur.com/HIoD4AP Pink/ Vot x2 / gold for 8 keys / unpainted for 7.9

http://imgur.com/En5RNqs Lime/Vot and low paints for 8

http://imgur.com/jVyA82M 40 ref (7.66 keys)

http://imgur.com/69LmyBS another Lime/Baf low tier paints for 8

You're saying it will change however. yes, maybe it will, because you people couldnt find anything other to mess with.

nearly all promo items did infact change in price over time, didn't the time for bill's come ? I think it is, people have different opinions, some agree, some refuse, we have to respect every opinion of everybody

And i also would like to add that "sadly" our mannconomy is full of profit-guys now. its normal that not many people are willing pay full price. but if we consider that. wouldnt everything fall in price ?

Also. how are we supposed to know if some trades are sold. if someone sells their bills. they'll close their trade. They are tons of em out there. even some of your sold already.

actually from my point of view, outpost harmed trading more than it did helping it, yes it is easier to trade and find all these cool items quickly, but it is filled with the so called "highballers and lowballers" which are a shame and they are resulting in the significant change in everything in the Mannconomy.

The thing is. Who makes high/low balls? Users. Who makes suggestions? Users.

As i said, this is going to crash if we keep considering them.

How many times will people keep posting Painted Bills... They aren't valid proof

so if painted items are selling for 8 or less then they dont count ? doubt that, then why not just remove the paint and sell it for 8, sounds like a plan ?

In my personal opinion, painted items shouldn't be used as proof/counter-proof period.

And please do try to be a little more sympathetic. It doesn't help your situation to be arrogant.

arrogant ? what did i say fine sir, i am replying politely to everyone to avoid flame wars. If i said anything wrong, correct me

You failed the first time, so why are you doing it again?

Paint on Bills suggestions = useless. We've said this a million times over the past two suggestions that have been such a silly argument in the first place.

Puddington accepted my previous suggestion only 3 days ago with a margin of 1000 net votes (positive) for the following reason: "Strikes me as another gift wrap situation, with it coming down to how we're defining 'quicksell'.

The votes speak too loudly to ignore here. Perhaps when there's a wider range on how Bill's hat is selling we can put in a range. As it is, 7.8-8 is an incredibly minute difference from 8, the situation has a lot left up to interpretation, and the community very clearly wants it listed as 8.

Accepting."

Counterproof:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10490200 Sold 8 keys (check history)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10369106 Offer of 8 keys 1 wep for unpainted

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10243621 Declines 7.8 offer

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10795688 Sold 4 of 5 unpainted at 8 keys each

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10436699 add at 8 keys

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10902821 Sold at 8

http://prntscr.com/15bm17

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10846067

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10819327 2 adds at 8

http://imgur.com/eD9OLK3

http://imgur.com/juc0KgM,JAHITRb

Sold at 8 keys

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10805809

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10828313

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10819327

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10704612

http://redd.it/1920yi Acquired for 8

http://redd.it/1d53p9 Added for one, unsure if painted or unpainted

http://redd.it/xwt01 (old)

http://redd.it/1cadr3 8 keys 1 ref buyer

http://redd.it/103z1o 8 keys .33 ref buyer, old

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10805949

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10816963

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10818759

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10819380

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10821647

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10823285

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10773519

Quoting one of my favorite comments of the post, by "President Plant"

3) As for the "Lots of Bill's unsold at 8 keys" - obviously. That is because there are so many Bill's on the market, there will always be a large amount unsold at 8 keys (the market price). It's harder to see all the ones that are selling at market price because the trades disappear as they are closed. Due to the sheer amount of Bill's on the market, you will also need more proof of unpainted Bill's selling below 8 keys for it to possibly accurately reflect the market.

4) Quicksell/buying trades alone don't count as proof either - you can buy a Bill's for 7.8 keys, but then I'm fairly sure you could do that half a year ago too. You'll always be able to get things below market price if you put up a buying trade.

So why did the last 7.8-8 suggestion get accepted?

Lots of bulk proof that didn't really mean anything stood as the suggester's argument. Didn't really work, or should not have worked. Redwall accepted it because of some sells, he termed as "bulk sell offs". Doesn't that mean quicksell? Should the price have not gone down in the end?

To make it brief, Bills hats still fetch 8 keys. Anyone selling under is instantly bought from because it is a quicksell. Painted Bills are taking a hit but that doesn't mean that unpainted ones do too.

Good point on last suggestion: "later on i showed that i could sell 2 in less than 16 hours for 8 keys each:

" http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10805809 first one easily sold in a few hours, second one sold when i woke up this day"

yes im mad. i got problem with this.

wolfi provided some links for unsolds at 8 keys. most of them were 3 days old and younger. to prove a price normally you'd need to have a week of unbought to use it as single proof.

there was one single trade that was still open under 8 keys. was that the only trade that was needed?

8 keys isnt a hard sell. and 7 keys+4 ref is a quicksell" -Christley </3 Peelz

So, to wrap up this bit of evidence again, 7.8 is quicksell, 8 is not. Backpack.tf does not represent quicksell pricing, and thus 8 keys we should stay.

EDIT: Forgot to say. I'm so done with this Bills stuff. My one incorrect vote this month is on the last one, and I'll still be downvoting with pride here. The fact this is a counter-counter response is already on bad grounds for a suggestion.

So here's the things we cannot drill into your head:

1. Painted Bills don't count.

2. You never post proof at 7.8, only lower, and then you suggest the price of 7.8-8 anyways

3. Anyone buying lower than 8 is a quickbuyer.

4. Anyone selling for less than 8 is immediately snatched up

5. We don't hate you, we hate this suggestion.

6. It was overturned the first two times, you should really stop resubmiting it.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10623019 add for bills

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11094855 Sold one of two

Ty for saving Bill's price.

I'm doing the best I can for this economy. Thank you.

So here's the things we cannot drill into your head:

1. Painted Bills don't count.

2. You never post proof at 7.8, only lower, and then you suggest the price of 7.8-8 anyways

3. Anyone buying lower than 8 is a quickbuyer.

4. Anyone selling for less than 8 is immediately snatched up

5. We don't hate you, we hate this suggestion.

6. It was overturned the first two times, you should really stop resubmiting it.

Answers:

1. I only provided painted whcih are high tier paints and sold for 8, are buyers who are successful buyers to bought painted bill's for less than 8.

2. Posted some 7.8, and lower too, when an item decreases, it decreases gradually not a super low decrease.

3. Buyers are allowed to use.

4. None of them were snatched before the suggestion was made which means people saw this and bought it for them selves resulting in me providing free service.

5. Some people place abusive comments, but people have to understand that bill's will change. If not from this suggestion, then the next, if not from the next, then from the other next and so on.

6. Cant answer that, it was overturned only once by Me, the other got accepted and counter-proofed, we will see where this goes then we can talk about the future.

Counter to "Answers"

1. Yes, Black, White, and high tier paints sell for 8-9 keys, but as this has been stated who knows how many times, PAINT DOSE NOT COUNT, even if I go out and sell a Black Bills for 8 keys, it wont count for proof, and never will be.

2. I buy quicksell bills and a lot of times sell them for 8 keys in less than a day, There are 163,000 + bills on the market, they go for 8 keys, there will be a lot of unsolds because there are 163,000+ and changing the price wont change that, If bills went down to 7 keys, there would still be unsolds for 7.

3. A quicksell is defined by any UNPAINTED selling for a major discount off of 8 keys, people can quicksell, there is only a need to submit a suggestion if Bills are constantly selling for 7.8 keys, they are not, they are mainly going for 8 keys +

4. http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11099693 this *my trade* sold at 8 keys pure, in the matter of seconds, people are and will be willing to pay full price for a bills.

5. Most of your proof is based off of quicksells, as stated before, a suggestion is only needed when bills are CONSTANTLY selling at 7.8 keys. Yes, one day Bills may go up or down, but this is not the time, stop resubmiting the same exact thing, you have failed once, another just the other day, do you need to resubmit it yet again, but you will fail again.

6. The new suggestion was accepted in the matter of days because the people of Team Fortress 2 care about the BIlls, so what there might be 163,000 + Bills out there, but they sell and sell CONSTANTLY at 8 keys, at this point anything below 8 keys is defined as a quicksell, and will be until they CONSTANTLY sell at below 8 keys.

You dont understand it, yet we have to tell you again and again. Stop please, you will fail again.

Sincerely,

Cave and the rest of the TF2 Community.

I saw that response to my comment and just laughed, and then turned off my computer and cried for an hour (maybe two).

Thank you for responding to this in the most logical way possible.

This is some of the most solid counter-proof I've seen with regard to the TF2 economy, honestly. Well done, sir. :D (@btf117)

Very credible couterproof. Here is one more as well.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10623019

So here's the things we cannot drill into your head:

1. Painted Bills don't count.

They count on everything, just not the way they used to.

2. You never post proof at 7.8, only lower, and then you suggest the price of 7.8-8 anyways

The hate that he would get for a lower suggestion is ridicules.

3. Anyone buying lower than 8 is a quickbuyer.

This is total and utter nonsense.

A. With that logic the price could never be adjusted.

B. Quickbuyer price is much lower than 2.5% off. That margin is a

waste of time and no one would care to make 1 - 2 ref on a 7+ key

investment. Especially when there are 1,916 for sale with at least 750

listed at around 8 keys. Who wants to wait for that sale? Don't ever

mention it again.

4. Anyone selling for less than 8 is immediately snatched up

Maybe they are the only ones that get snatched up.

5. We don't hate you, we hate this suggestion.

I have lost value on many items. Bills is no different.

6. It was overturned the first two times, you should really stop resubmiting it.

It is clear that the Bills needs to drop. Your intimidating someone

doesn't change that fact.

http://trade.tf/price/126/6

The Bills hasn't traded at 8 keys since May 6 and has generally been coming down.

Ah, so here we go again?

1. For the love of god, they don't. If we see a painted Bills selling for under 8 keys, then yes, they do count. But no, we don't see that.

2. That logic makes absolutely no sense. If 7-8 was more accurate, then why, why, why would you ever even try with 7.8?

3. Let's just call the counterproof coming from the guy with a 97.6% accuracy on voting "complete and utter nonsense", especially when you provide no proof to counter that fact.

4. Maybe the are the only ones snatched up? You didn't see the massive expanse of proof of sold at 8 keys? Or am I going to have to copy and paste that blob of text for a fourth time?

5. Value has nothing to do with this, so that argument makes no sense.

6. I'm certainly not intimidating anyone, and obviously, Bill's shouldn't be dropping, as shown by the community's response and still the little difficulty it takes to sell an unpainted Bills at 8 keys.

You posted the same one link on each Bills suggestion. Sorry, but I don't think one graph from trade.tf outbeats all of the proof I've posted time and time again.

Despite you saying it, paint does add value to any item it is on. Any.

I don't consider "redit" as proof, at all, btw. Along with that, the very first redit proof is a buyer post which considered less relevant. As mentioned.

That one graph represents many actual transactions that occur and you have less proof than the suggestor.

Unfortuately, painted bill's aren't being bought. But unpainted ones are. That's why we don't use painted Bills as proof.

http://reddit.com/r/tf2trade Obviously you don't know what reddit is, as this sub has 10,000+ subscribers and plenty of people visiting. It's like a mini outpost where good prices are supported and bad prices are ignored.

How do we know that the trade.tf graph doesn't include quicksells? I can answer that, It's because it does. If someone buys at 7 keys from someone who needs keys fast, and then sells for 8, trade.tf will take that as a Bills being worth 7.5. But the 7 key sell was a quicksell and 8 was a regular sell. Backpack.tf only takes into account regular sales, not quicksells.

And, once you weed through the proof that is actually accurate in the suggestion, which removes the painted Bills, the quickbuyers, and all the painted mess, you have about 1/2 of the amount of links I've posted. Being generous.

Paint

So unlike every other item in the game, paint has the opposite effect on Bills. It makes it less desirable and thus all the un-solds. Is that your point?

That trade forum handles very little traffic compared to OP or the classifieds. I see it as fringe and even easier to manipulate as proof.

He did use Vincent's recommendation about high tier paints which negates your last point.

PAINT ON ITEMS IS WORTHLESS from the POV of myself and many others in game. I'm a fucking black paint re-seller but I count black/other high tier paints on objects as near worthless because they are harder to re-sell seeing as you are then mostly looking for people that want X item at X color rather than just the item.

why the hell would reddit not be proof??????? are you mental

It has low traffic and seems fringe.

I have not heard great things about the reddit community. I mean look at how your expressing yourself.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11166262 closed 1 day ago

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11124079 sold at 8

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11240683 Offer of 8 gift wraps

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11214470 Sold 1 unpainted of 2

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10834275 Sold 1 of two, has an offer of 7 keys + 4 robohats + 3 craft hats (if each at 1.33 each, that's 7 keys + 9.33 ref)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11015653 Add 2 days ago, looks like he/she was too slow

thank you god or whoever you choose to believe or not believe in for you sir!!!!! you are a tf2 champ for what you do! i salute you and wish you best of luck

counter from the past suggestion...

Sold at 8 keys

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10805809

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10828313

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10819327

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10704612

http://redd.it/1920yi Acquired for 8

http://redd.it/1d53p9 Added for one, unsure if painted or unpainted

http://redd.it/xwt01 (old)

http://redd.it/1cadr3 8 keys 1 ref buyer

http://redd.it/103z1o 8 keys .33 ref buyer, old

http://puu.sh/2TtOk.png

http://puu.sh/2TtNQ.png

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10805949

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10816963

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10818759

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10819380

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10821647

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10823285

http://imgur.com/DdEm1TU ( http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10832217 )

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10773519

Sold at less? They are all quicksells or quickbuyers. Any Bills taken below 8 is instantly sold. Like within minutes sold.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10715958 - Sold for 7.8 keys

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10775080 - Sold for 7.6 keys

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10784165 - Sold for 7 keys

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10781092 - Sold for 7.8 keys

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10755486 - Selling for 7.6 keys

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10780782 - Sold for 7.6 keys

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10780974 - Selling for 7.8 keys

Oh man, again, those reddit links are months old, some of the screenshots are old or show someone buying a bills for 7 keys....

copying pasting the thingy from 1 week because finding own counterproof is just too mainstream

My trade; http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11113244 3 days from the section "Unsolds unpaited @8 time of posting"

Is unsold because I'm talking I someone about buying an unusual who values it at 8 keys, if you had looked at the offers, I've had multiple offers, since I posted it, at or above 8 keys.

Sold it for 8 keys, in a trade for an unusual.

ok, this is just getting ridiculous. You guys with your resuggesting arguments between 7.8-8 and 8. Just Let it be. This is a money item and dropping it by .2- on the low end just really isn't worth it... but at least you mostly left off the painted bills (anything painted selling for 8 keys or higher does not count as proof of lowering unpainted bills, but yes less than 8 keys is valid)

There is a certain point where you just stop with this. We already established people quicksell the Bill's at 7.8 two suggestions ago. I'm also not understanding why there is this new wave of people that insist on lowering the price. They seem to be the people the either do not have one or have never had one. Bill's will stay at 8 keys. Sure it is easy to find unsolds but that is because of the massive amount of Bill's that flood the market. The only problem is, on Outpost we cannot see all that have sold for 8 keys.

dude it me or you just wanna do bill dow so you can buy more??

According to trade.tf black paint retains around 4.66 ref on items it has been applied to, on average. White gets around 4.66 ref. Team Spirit up to 3.11 ref with pink and lime getting 2.44 and 2.22 ref respectively. The site calculates this by noting overpayment on an item with these paints. Paints are adding value in trading, not the traditional amount but they do.

Doesn't work the first time?

Resubmit

Market is changing and Bill's will change, if not now then someday it will, i contacted some mods and they allowed me to post another suggestion, when it comes to bill's, it will not pass from the first time, appreciate you stopping by and sharing your opinion.

well, then wait till the time is here.

today, the bills wont change!

Syrian. Don't bother. First of all, any painted bills at 8 keys gets snapped up really fast? Why? People want to resell. Link me someone selling a painted w/b bills for 8 keys and I'll link you my steam profile and you can jolly well tell the guy to add me.

STOP using PAINTED bills as an example. ONLY if the fecking price of a painted bill is sold under less than 8, then we can say we need a relook at the price. AND WHEN i say under less than 8, you better find a lot of painted under less than 8.

The reason why you can't see now is because many trades are closing as they open.

em, i didnt show any sellers of painted nor did i show any unsolds as painted, i just placed successful buyers of painted or not @less than 8 or 8 as if vincent said that if TS or high tier paints are accepted to be sold at 8, then there is something to look in

Technically it did work the first time, but there was another suggestion immediately after,

These suggestions are useless though. Too much bias here for there to be a fair vote.

The first time was 10 days ago, his attempt was 3 days ago, ironically 3 days after the 8 keys suggestion was accepted

this is his second time doing it.

Sorry, didn't see the suggestion 3 days ago, only the one 10 days ago.

Still, the voting results are practically meaningless. With the amount of people who probably are going to downvote because he's lowering the Bill's price, the people who honestly agree/disagree based on the proof are going to be vastly outnumbered.

Either provide constuctive criticism or counterproof. Spamming "stop" will not help not get accepted.

Why do you guys wanna drop the bill's so badly? It's a bill's hat, leave it alone.

I don't want currencies to drop/raise. Just for it to stay where it is. It's just your useless comment is basically spam and will not help in any way.

Read what vincent said.

And "STUPID (with caps)" just wanted to say thank you nice compliment and for the sweet word selection, appreciate it.

1. Get rid of painted stuff.

2. Get rid of quickbuyers.

3. Get rid of obvious quicksells

excuse me, qouting Vincent :- So, no, Black/White Bill's unsolds at 10 keys should not be used as proof for 7.8-8 keys, nor should available 9 key Black/White Bill's be used as 'selling under current price'. If there are regularly available Black/White/TS Bill's at 8 keys, then there's something to talk about." I dont think i did any thing that i was not supposed to post, also quote ""Buyers are okay to use" , so please, do read what i said

Because Vincent is always right. You are creating a suggestion for NORMAL bills only. Painted bills are falling in price. If there are painted bills UNDER 8 keys THEN that is legit proof.

If painted (with good paints, which is true here) Bills are going unsold for 8 Keys and we list the price of the unpainted hat at 8 Keys, something is wrong. Paint ain't free.

If black bills UNSOLD for 8 keys, then it's legit.

If black bills for 8 keys is proof for it to drop because 8-(black paint)<8 keys, then it is not legit.

So black, white, TS, etc. are worth... 0 keys? 0 ref? 0 scrap?

Those trades, whether they're unsold or sold, should stay as proof.

i have no idea, if you say bill's should be treated like normal items, then the paint must be half of its normal value, or am i mistaken ?

I'm not sure.. about 10%-20%?

Painted bill's are hard to sell for more.

Doesn't matter. KMD is creating a suggestion for NORMAL bills only. If it was a painted bills at 8 keys unsold, that would be proof. If a painted bills was at less than 8 keys, that is proof.

I'd say paints worth 1 key or more could be useful as proof. Others not so much

also want to talk about quicksells ? look at your key suggestion, more than half of your links of 5 ref are Sold, but people are just seeing that red arrow and they upvote without noticing that.

The thing is, with keys, the current range will ALWAYS be quicksells. Put a trade on outpost selling a key for 5.33, gone within 30 min. So should we eliminate 5.33 from the range?

Funny how you quote Vincent this whole time about painted Bills, and then ignore his comment saying "Keys get so many exceptions they should not be compared to any other item"

= No Proof downvote.

....what?

i dont even know

I think he was saying, if you remove all those things, he has no proof, therefore downvote. Which is for the most part true.

Oh....so basically that warn wasn't deserved.

Pretty much. But with this many comments, a lot of them useless, Woifi didn't really have time to think about each and every one.

It's sometimes hard to get the context if he replies to a comment that is not even in the same screen. Thx for pointing it out, unwarned it.^^

look at the proof, look at each link carefully, now look back here, your comment is hidden, we will see if you will still have 100% votes after this ends, thank you for stopping by.

I don't care people downvoting my comment, it's my opinion, bills are easy to sell for 8 keys. 7-8 are quickbuyers, and quicksellers only. I'm a trader, I traded more than 6000 items and I never sold 1 bills for less than 8 keys. Bills is 8 keys. Sold a lot of bills for this price, today, last week, last month and last year. Take care

in that comment all i saw is "free rep" is that your opinion ?

Anyway, if you looked closely, 8 is still in the range, we all sayed Max is 2 buds, look now. SUCESSFUL buyers do count, and sellers are willing to go lower than 8 also do count, if not, none of the suggestions to any of the items should have been accepted, Take Care.

Max was 2.5 buds before (like 1 year ago), then people starting to lowball and they went to 2 buds, now they're bit more because buds prices dropped. keys/bills/earbuds/max are changing price, you know why? Because people can buy/sell keys from/to steam market. But my vote is still the same.

Quote from your first suggestion that was closed after you had posted it 3 days ago: "i have exams and i cant study, so what i do? i make another suggestion for bill's to be the most hated person after long218"

Source: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/519e341fba2536cf0600000c

My question to you is do you truly have the community at heart in this suggestion or do you just wish to be hated by everyone such as Long?

I tried to be quite about it, couldn't, "Oh KMD go study other than making stupid/useless suggestion" i heard that many times there,people see a bill's suggestion with a red arrow and they hate the person instantly they see a green arrow on the keys they hate the person instantly, trust me, they do that, i was in that place, also that was a noobish move from my part, sowwie // got better proof, staying calm, and hopefully no errors from my side this time

Everyone knows that being hates is the new cool thing to do, why be likes when you can be hated? Amiright?

To stay on topic though. You shouldn't use painted bills/quickbuyers are proof for a suggestion. So a downvote from me.

Vincent said "buyers are okay to use" so I did use them and some links show some sellers, also i only used painted bill's when they are 8 or less, i quote "If there are regularly available Black/White/TS Bill's at 8 keys, then there's something to talk about." And people are agreeing to sell for that price.

I dont like being hated, but when you see people hating a person for a virtual hat, it is just stupidly hilarious, i like being good and people to like me, i acted childish last time, sowwie

being not-hated is too mainstream.

but yeah, mods aren't always right.

jesus christ, thats a lot of quickbuyers.

and some of the 8 key proofs have even sold. dont you check the proof before you put it up?

Don't use me as your unsold at 8, I just sold my last bill's at 8 just now.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11041932 Both sold at 8, will provide proof upon request. Also had multiple willing buyers at 8 and some with overpay above 8 in keys.

Further note, I've cut down on trading (Got a new job, yada yada yada) so I wasn't able to trade the willing buyers as fast as I'd like.

allright thanks for the heads up! good luck in your job and in your life fine Sir/Ma'am.

Thanks for the nice response!

i learnt from my mistakes, being polite is better than just go " I DONT CARE YOU SOLD YOUR BILLS GO DIE AAAAAAH" so yea :) good luck again !

This is true.

When will the suggestors learn that the mods here favor the mindless mob over the suggestors? The mob isn't going away and the mods aren't growing a spine to stop them, its a useless battle and its why I've been saying less and less on these suggestions.

This SHOULD pass. But will it? Nope, the mods won't do it, the mob would tear them apart for it.

Market is changing, people are getting with it but when it comes to bill's, people just downvote and say "bill's is 8 because it is 8", tried to prove some points for the people who actually read what is written, hope they reach :)

I wish you luck, sir. I've supported the other two previous 7.8-8 suggestions, and I support this one as well.

I would help you argue with the mob, but they don't reason, and after two suggestions of trying I'm kind of sick of arguing with what is the equivalent of a wall with the words "Bills are 8 Keys" written on it.

The problem is the opposition to this is not all a mob of arrogant, stubborn, and rude people. If I personally thought Bills were to be less than 8 keys, I'd be against the mob too. But I see so many selling at 8 keys and everything under that being just snatched up immediately that it leaves me with a rather obvious conclusion: That Bills under 8 keys are quicksells. And maybe it really won't be this way a month or two from now. But at this current moment, I see Bills at a very constant 8 keys.

I bookmarked about 12 trades in preparation for this suggestion to be passed. These were all open last night as of about 7:30 PM EST. If this suggestion gets passed, I will once again resubmit a 8 key flat raise. Not because I'm stubborn, but because I think that there is enough proof to hold the fact that 8 keys sells fine.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11231273 Sold Bills, has over 8 keys in bp. Price was listed as 8 keys but sadly he deleted that from the notes so I can't prove it.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9718539 Sold 14 Bills, has 1 left in stock

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10834275 1 of 2 sold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11166262 Sold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11124079 Sold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11214470 Sold 2 unpainted at 8 keys each

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11232885 Sold white painted, Lime painted, and unpainted for a bud

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11240683 23 hrs old, closed and sold (check bp)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11235376 1 day old, sold (check bp, not there)

So, where does that leave me? It means that I see that this suggestion should not pass. Too many still sell at 8 keys. Even in the proof posted of all the unsolds made by Syrian, many of those sold.

I know some very intellectual people who are against this suggestion too, we're not just a mob.

Stubborn, yes, but I did not say nor imply arrogant nor rude. Don't put words in my mouth. That goes to Revesilia as well.

---------------

>All under 8 are quicksells

Well this is going down the same path as every other comment pretty fast. Take a look at classifieds ( http://backpack.tf/classifieds/search/126/6/0 ).

7.6 for 17 hours

7.6 for 20 hours

Recent listing at 7.8

Those two 7.6 SURE sold fast. 17 hours and no buyers sure is fast alright, especially on a high demand item. Quicksells for currency items sell in seconds. Not even exaggerating here either. If this were a quicksell price, that 7.8 would've been gone already, and its only been up 5 minutes.

Btw, 14 Bills in a month is like one every 2 days. Thats not very fast.

Sold 1 of 2, took him a week to do it? Not fast at ALL.

3 Days to sell one hat? See above.

3 Unpainted would per 8 Per, but the White and Lime makes this pretty irrelevant. White Bills isn't 8 Flat, so that would mean that other two Bills were valued at less than 8 in the trade.

Can't confirm that he sold it for 8, just that he sold it for something. His new items are a SF Huntsman and 3 Keys, and most of his Keys histories' start with him.

So three of those are good counterproof. Good job, you matched the classifieds.

Classifieds is eh. Bp.tf sometimes doesn't remove the listing if it's sold. The seller might have gone offline after he or she listed the item. From the time of me typing this, there are a couple of keys up for less than 5.33 ref, all hours old. Keys under 5.33 ref get snatched up on Outpost extremely quickly. Who know what happens.

He did, he went and gathered more proof this time.

When will people learn that 7.8 is not a quicksell..

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11182276 - 7 keys + 3.00 < 3 hours old, unsold.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10970781 - 7 keys + 4.00 < 6 days, unsold

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11085214 < 7 keys O.o

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11007853 7.5 days old

Seriously..these are quicksells and yet they are not selling? O.o

everything is in the proof :) people dont seem to read it or they do and still argue with it, anyway, i got my points, people got there points and we must respect each one's decision / way he look at this

1. Sold

2. Not sold yet, I'll give you that, but hasn't been bumped in 6 hours

3. Sold

4. Hasn't been bumped in over 12 hours.

What I mean with the 'hasn't been bumped'; there are a lot of Bill's on the market, and since the price is pretty much set I don't think buyers will look further than the first few pages. Unbumped trades mean it's likely they have gotten limited exposure, slowing down how fast they sell.

Just because it's a good deal doesn't mean people will pick it up the instant it comes out.

L1: Sold.

L2: closed trade for some reason.

L3: Obvious quicksell, giving discounts on all his items.

L4: He's not accepting friend requests (look at comments)

All are sold now.

"Strikes me as another gift wrap situation, with it coming down to how we're defining 'quicksell'.

Accepting." A Distinctive Lack of Vincent

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/51960a34ba25368a1d000003

suggest you read this as well, read the whole thingy, well maybe just what Vincent said http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/1646-bills/

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11082447 < Black Bills for 8 keys because the stupid didn't want to sell after 3 days of trying to sell for 8.5

http://imgur.com/zATRzm3 black for 8 after posting the suggestion

http://imgur.com/kvkXByb normal for 7.8 after posting the suggestion

Neither of those imgur links lead anywhere for me.

look at the first offer on that trade

So your reasoning for changing the price on this promo is simply because the price on the other promo's have been moving lately

wat

appreciate that you read what i said, now continue reading throughout the proof, cheers

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11085214 --> Your 7 keys OMG OMG Prolly quicksold as I added him only to find out he sold it already.

http://prntscr.com/16t9cv

omg was without caps = not quite impressive ,, anyway, a sale is a sale right ? plus my low range is 7.8 not 7, i just saw it and posted it, more proof doesnt hurt does it ?

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11045021

http://www.tf2outpost.com/backpack/151991 Sold 1, not in his bp

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11041932

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11104974 2 days, not 3.'

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11045021

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10973208

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9694733 sounds like he had more than one

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11033388

Half of your proof is invalid and they seem to be selling in a few days at 8. Downvote.

"Half of your proof is invalid and they seem to be selling in a few days at 8."

That's why 8 keys is definitely in the suggested range.

Is it really worth putting it down by 0.2 of a key? Backpack.tf is for price GUIDELINES not the exact price, this is a barter based economy after all.

Good point. It`s more like a start. They should come down to 7-8. Who pays 8, when you get it for 7 in <24hours with a buying trade?

Thank god at least one person understands why this website exists.

Upon a quick look at the disgraceful outpost looking for this so called trend of bill's being sold for less than 8 keys I could find dozens of bill's being sold for the same old price they've always had.

If you take in consideration those scumbags looking for a quick profit then we should lower it to 5 keys, there was someone "quick-buying" them for that. Hell, that disgusting place is infested with that kind of traders already anyway so why bother.

Painted Bills aren't valid proof! Also why do people insist on changing Bills .2 of a key, who cares? Just leave it alone!

the existing price of 8 keys is still perfectly fine. Sorry but this is just a waste of a suggestion, I would explain why but this place is no longer responsive to reason, suggestions like this are just destroying the community, but no one gives two shits because they want to build up their internet points.

lol its helping the community by giving the newbies to get a hand on bill's hat for less. I always thought the best way to help the community was to give freebies or reduce prices, lol.

The problem with this site is it beats down prices so traders can make greater profits. backpack.tf is no longer a pricing site it's just a joke and a corrupt one at that. If I was brad I'd make some changes before he gets a reputation worse than spreadsheet which is just about here looking at comments around the internets.

always making excuses on "quickbuyers" is narrow-minded. People buy them for 7, 7.2 ( i got it there myself) 7.4 etc. Needs a range like every other item. Counterproof showing 8 is useless as 8 is in nu range and now feel free to dislike. Upvote

Why not just keep it at 8 keys just because the community wants it that way? That's what an admin said on the past suggestion and what I agree on.

y not also bring the keys back to 2.55 ref each, because the community wants so?

Why not also try and give a banal variation of my post? Don't be a douche and give a proper answer.

http://puu.sh/31WrD.png

I better not, I like not be banned from this website.

Forgive me if this has been posted by someone else, but I'll just copy and paste this from your last suggestion:

"So, as discussed here, in the prior suggestions, and in the forums, closing this. There is no pressing need to include 7.8 keys in range, a flat price always has natural variations around it. Not to mention that this suggestion has failed to prove theres a pressing need to include it, failing to demonstrate any significant number of people selling at 7.8 and instead relying on the crutch of unsolds, offers, and quickbuyers. The community clearly prefers the 8 key representation over the excessively nitpicky 7.8-8 keys, as by the votes. If Bill's is indeed dropping, save a price change for when it has done so to a substantial degree. Because until that point comes, 8 keys flat works just as well as 7.8-8 for a price guide."

-A Distinctive Lack of Vincent (the moderator who closed the last suggestion)

That is the opinion of one of the moderators of backpack.tf. Please keep it in mind, and is repeatedly proven, that the moderators of this website do not share a common opinion, therefore if Vincent disapproved of this, then some other mod might approve of this too.

Bold font for emphasis, because otherwise people won't understand what I'm saying.

You're saying, if your suggestion gets closed the first time, resubmit it in hopes another mod is assigned who may have different views.

The suggester in his description he says he asked from permission from moderators already before posting, I am not the one to say anything.

Your first post was written in a fashion to express one's own opinion (yours). While the second shows it. Please understand the distinction. Anyways, this is digressing from the point, I was merely providing the reason reason for my downvote.

The problem is Vincent and Puddington are probably the most respected mods of backpack.tf. Puddington accepted mine and Vincent closed the other. Generally their call is the final one.

Actually, I had accepted yours as well as closing the other. It's why I won't be handling this one. Not that my thoughts on the matter have changed. I still personally believe that a change from 8 flat to 7.8-8 is nitpicking, that 8 flat represents Bill's current status just as well for a price guide and community vote alone is sufficient as to which representation should be used on the site. But I've been too involved lately, between handling the past couple suggestions and discussing further on the forums. It's better for another mod to take action this time around.

Sorry about the error. We'll have to see where this one plays out.

You read what vincent said there, so please do read what vincent said up, I will always believe that bill's must drop, and i contacted Vincent personally and he agreed with me making another suggestion

I understand. But people are offering over 8 keys for Bill's as well. In my post above about me selling a Bill's for 8 keys in an unusual trade, I was also offered more. So people are willing to pay more as well. Hence why I feel that Bill's at 8 keys are fine. People are paying more, people are selling for less, but I still feel that there are plenty at 8 keys with sales below and above.

Just a few things of proof I found in a quick search.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11200702 - Offered of 6 keys + Gold Knife MK2 (8.5 keys)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9954977 - Offers of 6 robokeys (8.1 keys)

items take overpay, but, i have never seen people offering more than 8 pure for bill's

I'm aware of overpay, but .5 keys a lot. And in my own trade my some of the offers I received were over 8 keys as well. Multiple 6 robokey offers, one offer of 6 robokeys + 1 ref another offer of 7 keys and a robokey.

Too small of a change to matter. Think about how this is a pricing guide.

thats true

Oh good lord, it's only been a week since Vincent posts that crap like this is menial. Just leave it at 8 until the price range drops to around 7.5-8 (I guess it's 7.6-7.4 these days till keys make it to 6 ref *shudder*). This change is just unnecessary still. IT'S ONE REF.

EDIT: Not only that, but half your proof is garbage. A lot of the unsolds sold at 8 keys.

Just because other promos are changing in price doesn't mean bills are too. That's dumb logic. Now, gonna debunk as many as your links possible.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10387517 Very obvious quickbuyer.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9299565 Very obvious quickbuyer.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9953011 Very very VERY obvious quickbuyer. He's buying buds at 22 keys, should they drop to 22 keys again guys?

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10383906 Very obvious quickbuyer. Yeah, all those items he's buying? def. for keeps. Totally not reselling at all for profit and buying them at discount prices.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10443271 Invalid proof, this is from the above trader. You're just trying to line your "proof" with more links. Also, paint doesn't count. At all. Quick posting paints.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/6055665 He's quickbuying. It's really obvious.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10510562 Look! Again, he's buying buds at 20 keys! They should GO BACK DOWN TO 20 KEY GUYS AMIRIGHT PROOF Also, quickbuyer.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10542613 Obvious, obvious, obvious quickbuyer.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10976090 IT says quicksell RIGHT IN THE NOTES.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/7432201 QUICKBUYER.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/4133714 QUICKBUYER.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10666662 Obvious quickbuyer.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10177482 Obvious quickbuyer

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8615338 Obvious Quickbuyer

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10675230 Quickbuyer

The rest I'm not even gonna bother. They just wanna quicksell it for a better deal then 7 keys. It's pretty obvious.

I looked through all your proof. Maybe you A. Used your brain

B. Read notes,

you'd realise all these are quickbuyers if you A. Used your head B. Bothered to read notes.

Please stop. Once your suggestion has been cancelled, do not remake it 3 days later. It's just...stop. Your suggestion was denied. It's done. Or at least that's how it should be.

I looked through like 20 links of your worthless proof and every single one of them was a quickbuyers. If someone buys team spirit paint for 4 refined, that's a quickbuy, not valid proof for a trade.

A lot of those are buying for 7 keys. Selling at 7 keys indeed is quickselling.

This suggestion is about 7.8 keys.

Nonsense. Bills have been 8 keys flat for the last 1-2 years. They are the most stable item on the market. They will stay at 8 keys.

Leave it be goddamn it just leave it be.

Watch your language.

Edit: Why the downvotes? Some people get offended by that kind of language.

watch out or you'll get reported, i downvoted because i believe the proof is mostly quickbuyers and because it is a minute unneeded change, hope this is on topic enough

Why the hell are you getting downvotes?

even if i said some thing meaningfull i get downvoted, so yea, people just downvote because they can

Some people are also too sensitive. If a person in this day and age gets offended by somebody using the word "goddamn" I would shudder to see their reaction to rap music.

Anyways this guy is arguing for a literally 1.25 percent change in the average price of bills, at the same time opening up a price range (and thus, a buy low sell high opportunity) on one of the last stable items in this economy. Most of his proof, especially the unsolds, are garbage considering that many of them are either seldomly bumped, defunct trades, or have now been sold. His so called buyers are quickbuyers who are trying to buy maxes heads for 44 keys. While cursing him and calling him names isn't civilized behavior, his disingenuous methods and sheer persistence makes it so that he deserves it.

I mean I don't get offended by anything, but you never know about others.

"Goddamn" is so low on the insult tier list it isn't even offensive anymore compared to most of the insults that start with an f. If a religious fanatic gets on this price suggestion and complains about it's usage, I would suggest that instead of ranting about "goddamn" that he find a like minded community that shares his verbal preferences. Last time I check tf2 players weren't that concerned about blasphemy.

Thank you.

Provide counterproof or post useful posts that will get this suggestion denied.

For the last time, painted Bills aren't proof. The majority of Bills go for 8 keys. There are only people selling for less because it is a flooded market , making them want to get their keys quick, which 99% of them do. When people sell for cheaper because they need currency quickly, its called a quicksell.

Downvoting. Not because I don't like the price of it dropping, but because your proof does not count and does not represent the market accurately.

so if sellers actually do sell for those "quickbuyers", then they are having trouble seliing if for 8 keys thus giving up on it and selling it cheaper than market price, and if buyers are successful and people are agreeing to sell at that price, i think they do count

They are not having trouble selling it for 8 keys, they are having trouble getting their trade noticed. Huge difference. Putting your price lower makes it more noticeable, especially with sites like trade.tf detecting the "good deals".

excuse me, but i am kinda offended by that......

excuse me, but what are you getting at here? -_-

I believe he is trying to insult me, but it doesn't make much sense. Though, I don't know where Chinese came into this.

well i have absolutely no idea what's going on..... but imma stop bothering with this suggestion already~

You are lowering the price by 0.2 of a key. That's slightly less than a ref. 8 keys is ~41 ref. That ref will not make that much of a difference to most traders. 8 keys is easy, and simple. If people sell something for 40-41 instead of just 41 ref, is there really a reason to change the price? Another thing is that with items like a bill's hat, they are very common. Therefore there will always be a number of unsold bill's hats. Just because an item does not sell well at the current price, it doesn't mean that the price should be lowered. Can you list some successful buyers for 7.8 keys please?

I have my your opinions and some people may agree, disagree. I dont seek attention, i dont need it, you probabely never looked at what is putten in the suggestion resulting in your referring to it as "crappy"

You're trying to alter one of the most stable currencies there are by 1 refined. It's attention seeking at its highest. Also your "proof" is far from enough.

Says invalid proof > didnt even look at it, only look at the counter-proof.

Says garbage > Nice choice of words, thanks for the compliment.

Says Summer Vacation > Didnt even start

Go outside in the sun > Temperature 45C +

Says Summer school > My school doesnt do that.

Says Kid > GG

Your argument is invalid

I agree with that, as painted Bill's Hat proofs don't count.... there were a ton of them in KMD's links, which makes this suggestion utter bullshit.

where ,, just tell me where is a painted bill's that i pointed out that is MORE than 8 keys ,, WHERE ,, am i blind or something ?

u know a lot of people wanna either low balllllllllllllll

and they are called quick buyers

u gotta show us proof without the paint as it is going down ...............

teamspirit,pink,black and white are dropping thats why its cheaper

they sell paint with hats cheaper too. u got to show us more of people SELLING UNPAINTED BILLS. i have no bills just helping out ur nonsensical votes

And here we are again.. The price is not gonna change so stop with this suggestion! 7.8 keys is just to confuse people, this range is bs!

Sold @ 8 Keys. Check History: http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10905024

8 keys is in the range: Check suggested price.

Guys why you do so much trouble around the bills hat Price ? I think Bills hat have to stay at 8 keys because its somthing like currency

so buds, max , big kills are not currencies ? pfft

Don't forget Keys too. Currency has changed quite a bit recently

i am trying to find out where i said that max's decreased, and i cant see anything.

Hmm get a "bloody" life, seems like a little kid who is trying to show off in front of his friends Mr. #Y0L0 ,, not sure of who needs the life

that actually made me laugh

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”

Let Bill's hats be. There's honestly nothing I can say here that hasn't been said before. They're currency. Not meant to be sold for keys either. Currency. Use em to buy buds or something. Don't be silly and lower their price by .2 just because you can try to.

Sometimes I just don't understand what goes through these price suggesters minds when they hit save.

And why should it change then?

Look at my post and tell me when I said it should.

Thats right, I didn't say that. I said that saying it shouldn't because its currency is a stupid thing to say. Currency by no means has a constant value.

So you got that? Probably not, since we've already established you can't read, so I'll say it even clearer. I'll even bold it so it attracts your eyes. Put it all by itself too.

Saying the Bills is currency is not a valid reason to downvote a price change.

Wow, really? How was my comment worth a warning?

Let me try to make the same point then. We've been through this price change a couple of times in the last month and it is not sticking. I do not understand why this is so hard for certain people to accept.

1) The OP never actually proves regular sales of Bills' for less than 8 keys. Buyers asking to buy cheaper than standard price ARE NOT PROOF OF SALES even if they do get a couple of people to sell to them. Everyone wants to get stuff for cheap and sell on for easy profit. Ignore them.

2) Equally, some sellers know that if they bump the price of an item like this down by a ref or so, they will immediately sell it. These are quicksells, not standard prices. Ignore them.

3) When 7.8-8 gets accepted, a new suggestion is immediately made for 8, which is also accepted!

Could the admins maybe just talk amongst themselves for a while and make a decision on which way this site is going to go on this issue? Because this is one of the rare situations where a price drop on this site is NOT going to affect anything about the trading of Bills. They'll be 8 keys until they genuinely can't be sold for that anymore.

your comment was worth a warning because it had nothing to do with the suggestion, got any counter-proof ? you are welcome to post otherwise, you can keep your comments that, as you reffered as"silly" to yourself.

It is hard for you people to accept the fact that it is dropping not for us "suggestors" to accept that it is 8, i had a point and i backed it up with proof, you got your opinions then back em up with proof.

I'm not going to waste my time finding the literally dozens of Bills Hats selling for an easy 8 keys every day. It has everything to do with the suggestion because we've done this same price down/price up at least twice in the last month, and now here you are trying to get it to happen a 3rd time - even if you succeed, it'll immediately bump back up. So yes, this whole thing is silly nonsense, and that's putting it intentionally in language I would assume no one could be offended by.

Also, you haven't backed it up with proof, as I've already picked apart. Lowball buyers do not count. Quicksells do not count. Bills is 8 keys.

Lowball buyers do not count. Quicksells do not count

Read the notes. Go check the key suggestion, welcome

bills at 7.8 keys > xbox one.

ok, now on topic, the admin already said the .2 difference is too minimal to get accepted, if it got to the point when there were unsold's at 7.5 keys for more than 2, 3 days, then it's time to consider a price changing.

but as the admin said, this will always happens with fixed prices, Just cuz i can get a bud for 23 keys + 4 ref or sell one for 24 + 2 ref, doesn't mean i should make a suggestion 23.8-24.2.

if the difference in price is that small, i don't see a need for a change.

I laughed at the first line so hard xD

Anyway, again, i contacted Vincent, asked him if 7.6 or 7.8 would be more appropiate, he said 7.8 is better so i went for it :)

i really have a hard time following the logic of the admins in this site.

i agree that 7.8 range is correct, but i don't think it should be accepted.

For me, the problem for putting it at 7.8, is that open doors for the lowballers, and it becomes a snowball (just like happened with buds that dropped them down to 21 and only now are getting back up.

So i don't think it's worth the hassle for such a small range

But the admins need to put their foot down, if this is going to be vote based or is it going to be based on facts. because the fact is right there, it has a 7.8 range,

I'd hope its fact-based. We know from the last two Bills suggestions (and their comments) that the voters have no intention of hiding their bias.

Well a bills is 8 keys, you can easily get a TS bills for 8 keys and a white/black for 9, and ive seen alof of unpainted bilsl go for 7 keys.

Downvoted most sold for 8 keys in items/keys

I have been trying to sell my Pink Bill's for 8.5 keys for weeks without luck. Sold it finally at 8 keys + 1 ref. My other Black Bill's does not sell at all for weeks at 9.5 keys. Finally sold it at 9 keys + 1 ref. It's getting really tough to sell these Bill's these days compared to 2 months ago where it is easier to move these hats in general.

Not that iam upvoting or downvoting. Either way, it's gonna hurt the value of BIll's hat. Not voting for anything.

The price of painted Bill's has been changing. For a long time paint was being considered at full price (b/w being worth 2 keys by itself, and team stuff being 1 key). It seems that the weight of the paint is starting to change, and not so much the price of the Bills.

if all painted bills are selling above 8 then that should prove that bills sell for 8.

Sold them for the price listed, http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11116137

Bills are fine at 8 keys, stop touching the price of it and move on ok kiddo ^.^

Good proof, but i really dont want to see the price change for the sake of the community so i am not voting

honestly if we start putting the price down were going to kill the last solid promo left.it has kept its price over time. you have proof. but it hasn't convinced me enough to upvote you.

I think it should stay 8 keys, i bought my for 8 key though.

just sold one for 8 keys pure within a day of bumping, trade was opened UNBUMPED for 5 days

http://imgur.com/wJzomrY

Upvoted, bills arent 8 keys, and everyone knows that.

Quicksells and quickbuys are used quite often. I don't see why they shouldn't be used here

If we drop bills price, people will start selling for the price and maybe less. Why? Everyone who wanted a bill's to wear it and have keys already have it. The bill's is a promo, but doesn't see to have THAT demand it had 6~12 months ago. I don't really agree to bill's drop the price since it's used as an promo-currency for unusual trading. Also we have people who prefer to having keys than a promo-currency, this is why earbuds are sold for keys too. And this is why ''bill's quicksales'' happens, also painted bill's aren't proof, a lot of people already said it and you keep ignoring them.

where did i use painted bill's unless they are for 8 or less

Everything you said justifies it receiving a drop in price.

I know. I just gave my personal opinion after that.

I can't stand it... Let me explain this in depth a touch.

First off, a quote from our favorite Citrus.

"When will the suggestors learn that the mods here favor the mindless mob over the suggestors? The mob isn't going away and the mods aren't growing a spine to stop them, its a useless battle and its why I've been saying less and less on these suggestions.

This SHOULD pass. But will it? Nope, the mods won't do it, the mob would tear them apart for it."

Sooo... We're all morons, who are gonna keep paying 8 keys for our bills until the world ends. We should all start paying less because that's what the elite suggestors do, but we won't cause we're a mindless mob.

Next quote...

"So, no, Black/White Bill's unsolds at 10 keys should not be used as proof for 7.8-8 keys, nor should available 9 key Black/White Bill's be used as 'selling under current price'. If there are regularly available Black/White/TS Bill's at 8 keys, then there's something to talk about." - Vincent

Very nice of you to shed some light on this Vincent, and, much as you like to digress Syrian, let's face it, you have about 5 trades that fall into this catagory. There are 163,000 bills. Sorry, but nah.

Next, unsold bills...

Many, many bills change hands every day. And with so many people to choose from, not every trade on outpost is gonna get attention. The ones that don't get the attention are labeled as the "Greenwater Effect." This happens when there are so many people selling the same item, not everybody gets attention. Your pitiful 10 unsold bills don't stand up to this, if we could browse closed outpost trades this suggestion wouldn't be here.

Sooo let's bring it back to point. The "Mindless mob" refuses to pay less for their bills. And yet, we are the bills price. What we pay is the price, Backpack must reflect us. No matter how much the "suggestors" try, their little quickbuy shops won't change the bulk of trades that happen.

A few quicksell painted bills can't change the many that do change. I personally have a white bills, and bought it for 9 keys. Only 1 in every 20 outpost trades is below a "fair value." This suggestion shows not the 19 trades in the range, but the 1 outside it.

The Greenwater effect explains the 10 unsold trades you have. A different bills trade on outpost is bumped about every 5 seconds. With this much action, how can anyone hope to get their bills noticed? Autobump can help a bit, but still, it's easy to see how they get plowed under.

Feel free to respond, sorry if I digressed slightly, but I hope this makes sense to ya.

Well thats one way to take it. I was implying that the price was ALREADY lower and the mob should learn to deal with it and stop downvoting all the suggestions to hell and back. I personally don't buy and sell Bills because even if you can buy it for 7.8, waiting for a week to sell the thing for a 1 Ref profit really isn't worth it.

I don't doubt that there are 163,000 Bills, but you should remember that only 15% of them have been obtained via trading. That means that less than 23,000 have EVER been traded, Not to mention that the fact was irrelevant anyway since it had nothing to do with Vincent's comment. Lime/Pink/TS Bills for 8 Keys aren't exactly uncommon, and a quick look at classifieds shows that B/W are going for 8.5 (the B/W is startling and all, but also kinda irrelevant).

The Mob/community/whatever just wants stability. But as the sellers and successful (oh god forbid) buyers *everyone gasps at the mention of buyer trades* indicate, people are fairly willing to go to 7.8 (and lower, but small steps here).

Also, you mention the "suggestors" a lot, and seem to imply that this range would benefit people in favor of such a range. As I mentioned above, I havent bought/sold Bills in a while, and taking a look at KMD's open trades on OP, he doesn't either. I for one (and probably KMD and PEASANT as well) simply like to see the prices here be accurate. This is, after all, a site to report the actual prices, and not the prices that the community wants to see.

http://prntscr.com/174hbs

I don't get it, you have tons of links showing quicksell pricing and think it should be down below 8, yet below 8 is a quicksell price?

When you start showing unsold Bills for less then 8 keys over more then a a couple days, then you can start dropping the price.

Although it's not like that'll happen anytime soon, so looks like that'll be fail number 3 in a row on trying to include the quicksell range into the pricing. You'd think he'd learn after the first 2 didn't work.

Well, I better get to gathering even more proof, because y'all can guess what will happen if this gets accepted.

#savethebills

http://puu.sh/33aZp.png

lol really? that's some lame logic there, at least look at the proof

Never read such a dumb statement wtf

I dont care anymore. You bills guys have voted all BMOC, festives all kind of things down. Now its your turn :)

Christmas stuff has been hyped without any valid reason.

Im not talking about just christmiss stuff, I talk about genuines, rare vintage, salvaged etc too

bills should stay at 8 keys its fair price

it gets too confusing when keys go into decimals

Agree with price change. Currently selling bill's at 7.8. http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11254482

actually, there's a guy selling these 2 for 7 keys 3 ref or 2 for 15

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11248547

Bill's are kind of a higher type of currency now days. Almost like $10 to is 10 $1, and you wouldn't change the value of a $10. I feel that bill's hat price shouldn't change

3 at 7.8 1 at 7.6 in classifeds

http://imgur.com/ttTh91O - 7.6 & 7.8 classified listing

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11248547 - 12 hours old, and still not sold

7.8 is not a quicksell. 7.5 and 7 keys would be the quicksell price.

Was about to post exactly the same. There are two 7.6 key sellers now.

Upvoting.

>"Waaaah 7.5 is a quicksell!"

>"Why would you suggest a Bill's price change are currencies supposed to be set prices?"

>"The Bill's is a stable hat!"

My god will these comments just end? The Bill's is an item like any other, even the big 3 currencies used in TF2 (Metal, Keys, and Buds). They all have to change. Keys are going up in metal value, and this item isn't budging to match the metal value when the price was suggested. Thus the metal value of the hat will keep going up because ~~some~~ a lot of people think anything below 10% of the market value is a friggen quicksell.

I'm upvoting purely for the fact that the Bill's needs a serious price change. None of that "MUH BILLS!" bull. The people who cry over Bill's Hat changes seem to only have as much knowledge as those who magically expect keys to go down to 2.66 ref: None at all.

Market's changing, kids. We can't just let something sit at 8 keys for 9 whole months because somehow it's "stable". Trust me, it's changing as much as any other item in this economy. Problem is some people don't accept change and some people don't like to look past the paint to see what the walls are.

Hopefully this gets accepted and we have a flood of people who know something about the market rather than immediately suggesting 8 keys again after one change is made. Ya people need to clam it down a little and accept the fact that everything moves.

yay someone understood me / have same opinions

Took me just as long to buy for 7.8 as it did to sell for 8, i approve this price change.

Heavy: Put Bills suggestion here.

Spy: I think not.

None of the 7.6 sellers in classifieds answer friend invites. One of them is online.

Well both aren't in classifieds anymore. 1 rejected my friend invite, the other accepted but didn't have it anymore.

@admins -- How much more time untill decision is made? Even the community is now bored with posting comments !!

Alright guys, apparently a lot of you don't get this concept.

Saying the Bills is a currency is not a valid reason to downvote the suggestion. Stop saying that.

Currencies have been constantly changing. Keys, buds, maxes, ect.

I apologize to those downvoters with sense who downvote because they actually feel the suggestion is bad.

Oh yes. Less than 100 votes until this becomes the most voted-on suggestion in backpack.tf history.

And yes, I too am concerned that this hasn't been assigned yet. Whatever mod decides to take this on is going to have one hell of a mess to sort out.

PLEASE NOTE THIS SUGGESTION IS NOT REDUCING THE PRICE OF BILLS. It is merely making a more accurate range at which bills hats sell for. Even if bills can sell at 8 keys, the price must be updated when many sellers cannot part with their bills for even 7.8 keys. upvoted.

Except no concrete proof was provided to make the suggestion valid.

no concrete proof? There was tons of proof listed showing bills selling at 7.8. It doesn't matter if it still goes for 8 keys as long as a chunk of them go for 7.8. People keep presenting evidence that it sells at 8 keys, yet 8 keys is still within the suggested price range. If someone can prove no one sells at 7.8 keys or that those are quick-sells (which they're not since they don't exactly sell fast) then this suggestion shouldn't be passed.

I don't have to present evidence, mainly because there are at least a dozen people posting counter proof for the suggestion. And the person who made the suggestion cannot prove that enough UNPAINTED Bill's are sold for less than 8 keys for this to be considered viable. He used primarily PAINTED Bill's Hats as posted proof, which as has been successfully argued in the past, you absolutely CANNOT do for a bill's suggestion. You don't make a suggestion for hats and count the paint, and you don't make a suggestion for stranges and add parts to the price of the transaction. This suggestion is supposed to be for an UNPAINTED Bill's Hat. He is using quickbuying and painted hat sales to enforce the price, when paint prices have fallen like a stone through water, and most of the links he claims were unsold for eight keys were at least ADDED for eight keys. What he has done is basically akin to someone inflating the price of his own unusual hat without providing proof for the price suggestion. What he is counting on is gullible voters to be suckered in to assuming that all the links he has posted are legit and then rely on people not investigating the price themselves (good luck with that).

The suggestion for this hat is valid, and has lots of proof to it. Upvoting.

Less then 8 keys for sale. 8 hours old and 12 hours old and not sold....

This is a quicksell? If so, why aren't these sold yet?

http://imgur.com/XqhiuLd,NLz6Dk6,PJ6yQ6D

To all my friends calling 7.8 as quick-sell, I have a bill's for 7.75 keys. Please buy and it and show your concern for the economy.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11258200 selling for <8 key

Alright, this has been up long enough.

There are several main points in the comments (also a lot of petty insults).

Pros; Bill's are traded often at under 8 keys, and painted Bill's appear often with very little value placed on the paint.

Cons; Bill's under 8 keys sell very fast, the price guide is supposed to represent vanilla items, and it is a very miniscule change (2.5 percent).

Currency is always going to sell quickly, and more expensive items do take a bit more patience to sell. So much of the proof for 8 keys has sold it is safe to say that it is an easy price to obtain for Bill's, provided you factor in how expensive they are and have a modicum of patience.

While Bill's under 8 do appear in trades often, they are not readily available because of how quickly they are bought. Like keys, if it takes concentrated effort (be it camping outpost or trade servers, or really old buy trades) to buy a Bill's under 8 from a seller.

Trades will happen outside the range we list (in both directions) no matter what. The proof shows that 8 is readily obtainable for sellers, but that 7.8 is much, much harder for buyers. Painted Bill's should not be factored into the price of vanilla items, because that says more about paint prices than the item itself.

I'm closing this. The change is too miniscule to keep making counter-suggestions over and the suggestors keep recycling proof. It's obvious that 7.8 is too difficult for buyers to get and that 8 is easy for sellers.

I agree.

Lots of people selling them for 7-8 keys.

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11281114[/url]

Black Bills for 9 keys here [url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11283683[/url]

[url]http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11303688[/url]