Suggestion: Refined Metal at $0.25–$0.27

Price Suggestion

~$0.03

1643 votes up

2508 votes down

Related Suggestions

This suggestion was closed Wed, 12 Feb 14 17:47:36 +0000 by Horizon.

Comments can no longer be left on this suggestion.

Comments

I leave trading for over half a year and you guys can't even keep up with the price of refined. The current price is severely wrong and making all backpacks valued way too high.

Current listed values of currency on backpack.tf in USD:

Earbuds- $40.27

Keys- $2.07

Actual USD values of currency:

Earbuds: $34-35

Keys- ~$1.80

Estimated refined value needed to reflect proper backpack pricing: $.25-.26

Actual selling prices on the market:

$.27

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27138.0

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=22547.0 (Jan 28)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17062987

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10319745

http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/152551

http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/150278

http://bazaar.tf/trade/659161

$.26

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=26344.0

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27241.0

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16142610

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17588815

http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/156171 (.26-.29 depending on amount)

http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/153505

$.25

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16780426 (.27, .25 if 20+)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17413127

http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/149284

$.24

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17791666

(SOP Threads last updated on Jan 28/29)

The price is NOT $.29-.30. This should be the most accurate price on the entire website since it sets the backpack values.

Need quite a bit more proof.

Selling refined for USD isn't that large of a market. There are usually only 5-10 actual serious refined sellers. Most of what you see on places like outpost is people buying keys at market value, selling them for refined, and then raising their price on refined to make a large profit. They may sell 5-10 refined a week if they are lucky. (Compared to me selling 100+ keys a week)

Anyway, the point of the refined price here is not to set the value of refined so that people know what to sell it at. The point of the refined price here is to keep the backpack values in USD correct. That is why Brad eventually made it something that you could vote on.

Now, if you want proof of keys being sold at $1.80, which is 7 times the price of refined, I'll give you a list 50 links high.

You should look at past suggestions for examples of how much proof you need.

I know perfectly well what it takes to suggest refined prices.

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/511e91fbba25361975000006

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/5109949dba2536b95c000003

And you need more

I disagree, but I appreciate your concern.

Also, like 70% of your links are outdated, and i'm pretty sure some of them were in past suggestions.

70%? Come on, you should have better math skills than that. And outdated? Do you even know anything about paypal trading? I mean based on your history that I could find (other than you being banned on outpost right now), you have never done cash trading. If you had, you would know that SourceOP, which was the largest cash trading website, is currently down and that the last time those threads would have been updated was Jan 28/29th. (That's why I included that note in the first post, for people like you.) The only one close to being outdated is the one on tf2-trader on Jan 28th.

But if you feel like you need to comment on an area of trading you have no clue about, that is your choice.

I like how an intelligent, well thought out response like this gets disliked by so many people. Save the dislikes for unintelligent spam or incorrect accusations, we don't want to discourage intelligent people like this guy from commenting.

Times have changed, the amount of proof needed has changed with it

Two weeks ago a suggestor was advised by an admin to get at least "this much proof before remaking a suggestion" http://backpack.tf/vote/id/52ca36fe4dd7b8bd778b456f ?

Pretty clear more proof is needed based on your own admins verdict of the last suggestion

Shut it down Bucket, let the man come back in a week or two with more proof.

Keeping it open for this long looks bad when your own admins are saying more proof at $.25 would be helpful and none has been given since.

Skeptics of bp.tf might say this is being kept open until the vote% is close enough to 40-50 to be accepted. I am not one of those in this case, I just think theres not enough proof there to justify a 10% decrease of price, and so do many others.

I'll be nice and play along. Here are 2 from your own website.

$.25:

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/6534

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/6697

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27204

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17358478

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17612020 - $.30 unsold for a week

Forum links doesn't work.~

Interesting. You put a hyphen after them and they work. That is weird.

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/6534-

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/6697-

So you call one suggestion with proof taken from someone else and another accepted over a year ago when the market was much smaller, good experience. Seriously, that's not knowing perfectly well mate.

The Paypal refined market is actually much smaller now than it was then. Then, it was worth more and people actually traded in it. Now? Not so much. It's value is going down so much that people don't really want to pay for it and buy keys primarily.

Fair do's. But more proof is still required, that's just how it is I'm afraid.

...3 links for $.25?

You're not supposed to price these with logic...

No matter the price of keys or buds and what they sell for, you need to look at solds of ref and unsold of the current range of which you fail to provide.

I believe you didn't bother to even check the other suggestions on this. Without showing unsolds for .29 and .30 I have no choice but to downvote you.

Also, seriously? 3 links only for the low end??

Decelerating the speed of the boat.

Last suggestion was told to go and gather more proof, and he had more than you. Might have been the wrong time to suggest this, with sourceop trade sections down for the moment.

Show some unsolds at $.28-.29 and some more $.25 sellers and you'll get an upvote from me, until then downvote.

I do agree that refined metal is valued to high, but you need more proof buddy.

I agree with the suggester and I find the people who simply ask for more proof without considering anything the suggester said very annoying.

Like an unusual suggestion, there are not many trades going on so the number of proof needed should be proportional to the volume. If there are only 5 of that unusual hats in the world how can one provide much more than 5 proofs?

A valid comment for unusual pricing, except in this case, for refined, there are plenty of trades about... but very few at the low price the suggestor is going for. Thats why he cannot put enough proof together to make this a serious suggestion and why everyone is downvoting this.

But there are still many sales >=0.29

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17062987

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17156603

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17698808

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15958782

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/8753784

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15565942

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11075214

etc.

....idk would probably need more proof. downvote for now

all i see are dead trades, with nobody wanting to buy aka no post of buyers

Why is this still open for a whole duckin day??

No further proof is provided for low end and no unsolds is shown for any current range.

Probably to give time for kids to see the red arrow, upvote it regardless of the less than adequete proof so they can get their ego boost of getting something right, and so an admin can force this suggestion through based on % of votes rather than proof provided.

Because no mod took the time to analyze this (deeply). Keep in mind that we have to search the market on our own as well.~

I guess I will just provide whats wrong with your links:

.25 links:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17413127 --> Last online over 32 hours ago which is equivalent to 1 day and over 8 hours and counting.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16780426 --> Sold out, has no refined in backpack.

.26 links:

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27241.0 --> Has only 5 refined left.

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=26344.0 --> Last online over 15 hours ago.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16142610 --> Same user as the link above.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17588815 --> Last online over 12 hours ago, has only 8 refined left.

.27 links:

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27138.0 --> Has only 10 refined left.

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=22547.0 --> Looks good.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17062987 --> Looks good

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10319745 --> Looks good

http://bazaar.tf/trade/659161 --> Invalid, sold out no refined left in backpack.

~~~

It seems like .27 sells quickly, along with that below .27 sells 2fast2quick.

Decelerated the speed of the boat 1 day ago and has not changed the gear since.

Closing this suggestion would be wise, since it is obvious that the voters are against your suggestion, and you have FAR TOO FEW links to prove your suggestion.

$0.24- http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17791666

This was opened 2 days ago and closed 2 days ago looks like quicksell to me

$0.25- http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16780426 has not metal in his backpack.. sounds like quicksell to me too... and im pretty sure a while back i read one of the guidlines to good suggestions that you shouldnt use proof in bulks or if part of a larger deal, so basically its still 0.27

I think u need more proof on low end

Also needs unsolds@0.29 and 0.3 to remove 0.29 and 0.3 from the range

Sold for .30 few days back. Sold 7

http://i.imgur.com/JyFmfze.jpg?1

The price of refined is no longer based on the $ price of keys since making suggestions for it is possible. So the price of keys can tell us market trends but is not considered as "proof".

Let's summarize all your links:

$.24

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17791666 - seems like he had 20 ref and sold it within a day or two

$.25

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16780426 (.27, .25 if 20+) - no items in backpack besides weapons, had ~15 ref a few days ago

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17413127 - had 750 ref yesterday and 50 now.

http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/149284 - buyer, not seller

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/6534- - didn't sell a single one, poorly bumped on bp.tf forums is probably not the best place to sell ref in combination with the "huge rep" required.

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/6697- http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17638232 - seems like he decided not to sell his ref on outpost, didnt bump his forum thread once

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27204 - http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17647104 - doesnt seem like he is very active either

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17358478 - 8 ref in stock is very few~

$.26

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=26344.0 - got added recently

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27241.0 - sold 4 ref for 0.25 and is selling for 0.26 now~

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16142610 - same seller as 2 links above

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17588815 - minimum purchase is 50$ which is ~193 refined. has 1800 in stock at least

http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/156171 (.26-.29 depending on amount)

http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/153505 - same seller as link 1 and 3 from the 0.26 ones

$.27

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27138.0 - seems to have success

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=22547.0 (Jan 28) - almost a year between his last 2 bumps lol, can't tell if successful or not

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17062987 - sells for 0.31 now

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10319745 - banned now

http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/152551

http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/150278

http://bazaar.tf/trade/659161 - his price is closer to 0.28 than to 0.27, also sold out~

$0.28

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16909997 - sold ~350 ref on jan 27-28

$0.29

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17156603 - sold a bunch of stuff nearly 1 month ago, not much after that~

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17698808 - doesn't seem like he has success

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15958782 - stock is on alt accounts, can't tell if he has success

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15565942 - hardly online and didn't sell any ref in the last week it seems

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17802943 - 0.29, sold maybe 10 ref in the last 3 days

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17739017 - doesn't seem like he sold any ref

$0.3

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16686117 - sold 7 ref for 0.3 2 days ago

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15824878 - apparantly sold his last ref 10 days ago, got 10 ref in stock now

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/7505351 - didn't sell a single ref

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17854590 - didn't sell a single ref

Source-Op stopped their trading section almost 2 weeks ago, so it's even harder to find proof these days.

Conclusion (I'm not completely done yet, still took me like 2 hours, I will let another mod decide or search myself later):

Ref hardly sells at the current range and only a few, but 0.25 seems like a quicksell. I guess a more conservative drop is needed and preferred by the community.

Yeah I think $.26-$.28 would probably be more appropriate. Though I don't know if you would consider the january 27-28 trade outdated at this point (especially with the OP willing to sell all anyone wants at $.26). I know in the past the mods have allowed prices that are more accurate even if they are not perfect, but I think that would be unlikely to occur with so many people concerned about their bp value. GL deciding!

Gj Woifi, shame you had to spend 2 hours to look for yourself and analyze it. But I think the community cannot thank you enough for doing so.

As I have stated multiple times, $.26-.27 is the best price...for sellers. And that $.25 is a quicksale price. But that is only 1 side of the equation. You also have the buyers side of the equation that you did not represent. Sellers set the upper price while buyers set the lower price. No buyers are paying more than $.25. (You also didn't include my offer to sell 5,000+ at .26)

This is the same way you price every item here (or at least I hope that is how it is still done). If you only counted the price of sellers, keys would be 7.11-7.22 right now.

I don't think this should be accepted at all. I did research myself and found out .25 is indeed a quicksell. There are still .28, .29, and as well as .30 success I don't see why it needs to go down that low at the moment, not sure whats there to check more. I provided enough counter-proof and whatnot.

I included all your links in my comment. Hardly any real "counterproof".

The quantity of your sales were negligible compared to the original poster. Someone selling 10 refined when the OP is offering to sell 5000 refined for less seems very irrelevant. This suggestion has a lot of negative feedback, but so did the last suggestion despite the fact it was very clear that a change was in order. This range is not perfect, but it is better than the current one. If you were to make a counter-suggestion for $.26-$.28 instead of whining it would very likely pass (despite the fact even it would probably not get 50% approval).

I would definitely make a suggestion but I am not sure myself what to include in the range but I can definitely see that .25 is a quicksell and it does not below in the range at the moment which is in this suggestion.

Do you agree or disagree that 7 refined is a quicksell price for a key?

I agree that that seems irrelevant to this suggestion.

But yes, I've treated Keys as 7.11-7.22 for a while now, it's not really a problem to me if they're listed as 7 Ref here, it's not hard to tell.

I suspect he asked that because everyone knows that keys sell fast at 7 ref. The issue here is that it doesn't matter how fast keys sell at 7 ref because it is such a commonly traded price point. Woifi has pointed out that over 700 refined has been traded at $.25 meanwhile not even half that much has sold at $.28 or more. That is why this suggestion is still here, no one has proven anything else to be more accurate.

All you have yelled for long is "inadequate proof" and we can sense a strong stance you dont wanna lower the ref price. Now your so called counter proof is even weaker and you refuse to suggest a price of a more conservative drop, which seems to be the most appropriate upon our discussion.

May I know what you are so against a drop in ref price despite the apparent proof, logic and opinions?

$0.26

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16374616 - got some adds in the last days, still have stock

$0.28

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/14012933 - reopened freshly (at least I hope that for him), ~17 in stock

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17903947 - 50 in stock, doesn't seem like he sold any yet

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15318714 - ~160 in stock, doesn't seem like he sold any in the last few days

$0.29

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17921549 - opened today, nothing yet, 11 in stock

And a bunch of 0.3 trades but I don't list them.

So the final conclusion is that 0.25 gets sold quickly and very few have stock at that price. The most commonly traded price seems to be 0.26-0.28 at the moment. As usual, trades also happen outside of that range. Some reputable sellers may have small success at 0.29 or 0.3 but if you keep searching you will find ref for 0.25. This suggestion should be only based on the seller side since more reputable buyers will always have success significantly lower than what they sell for. You can buy keys for 1.65 and sell for 1.8 without too much trouble, but I don't think that the price here should represent that. Votes are negative as well, and I agree with the community that a more conservative drop is warranted

Why dont you add more proof to support your suggestion ._.

Lol the proof shouldn't be able to be completely viewed on my iPad screen without scrolling.

Much more proof needed..

I want so see unsolds at .29 and .30 Downvoted.

Show me keys selling for $2.07 USD paypal and I'll delete the post right now.

just curious, why does it have to be paypal for this?

The backpack.tf backpack USD value is based on gray market PayPal values. If you want to sell everything you have in your backpack, that's how much it is worth.

That value is based on the price of refined. Refined is the only item on the website that gets a pure USD value. An items USD value shown in your backpack is based on how much refined it is worth.

one of the bigger tf2 store, 2.25 And the sell tons of them everyday...

http://tf2shop.net/details/5021-6

That's cute. For now, I'm just going to assume you are being sarcastic. Really don't feel like spending 10 minutes explaining how those websites work.

He is not being sarcastic. If that site is selling the refined at that price, it technically counts as proof. Plus, your absolute refusal to prove that refined is not selling at the current price range counts against you. So it is extremely safe for me to downvote this suggestion.

This argument seems to consist of ease levels - People generally pay more for these player made websites or purchase from the tf2 official shop because it is easier and reliable.

Trading with players can be risky and scams happen every day along with account hijacking for newer players.

The issue here is if this price range is based on player to player selling/buying or automated websites.

That store is selling things for over steam market prices....

but I could always just show you the steam community market with it's 2.38 USD ish sales

The steam marketplace is not pure, liquid USD and should as a result not be placed in the same category as paypal, which can be converted to cash at a 1:1 ratio. Steam market funds can't be 1:1 with cash.

you need alot more proof for 1 of the few currencies on tf2

arguments can be made that its a small market, but more proof is still needed overall. downvote

This guy is smart. And he is being helpful to buyers (and he even leave quite decent profit for sellers) with the price suggestion.

Even many argue with the quantity of proofs, I'll go with common the logic: UPVOTE !

more proof at .25 would be helpful

I'm waiting for counter evidence, that I have yet to see. All I have seen is people complaining.

First of all, this suggestion is not about setting the value of refined. It is about setting the USD value of the entire website. It's like nobody commenting here actually knows what the price means. We've got people referencing the community market and for profit websites. I mean, seriously?

And then there is you wanting more proof for .25. It's the low end! If there were 10 people selling for .25, it would be the top/middle and not the bottom of the range. It's the bottom because there are people selling at that price, but not a lot.

Now, if we want to use how prices are normally set here, we would be using what people are buying at to set the bottom end of the price. People are buying way lower than $.25.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10952689 - $.23 (over 600)

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/4061489 - $.22-.25

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15519356 - $.20

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/6954226 - $.20

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17831972 - $.20

That's the ones I could find at $.20 or higher.

"First of all, this suggestion is not about setting the value of refined"

That is exactly what suggesting a new price does. It changes the value of an item, in this case refined. Wether your suggestion has another intention is less relevant than the value change it would cause if passed.

The burden is primarily yours to find enough proof to support the change, not others to present counterproof. It is quite clear from previous suggestions and the proof that they contained that you do not have enough of it.

A nice attempt though with some valid proof, allbeit mostly week old links from sourceop which cannot be changed/edited. :) At least you did not just say "$1.80 / 7 is $0.25 so it should be lowered: end of suggestion proof"

This is a problem only because the value of the item in USD is not tied to market caps imposed by Valve itself, as is with the keys. Being a low-value/high-volume currency that has been devalued in direct trades for other higher value currencies BUT has not consistently reflected this devaluation with trades for other commodities (IE hats), Changing its value will only influence low-value sub-key prices, while not interesting any other 1+ key pricetags on the entire market.

This is a big problem.

I guess most of the people here dunno wt this guy s saying

the price of low-value sub-key items will certainly be directly affected in USD upon the change. But the above-key items' USD value will also be affected, at least on bp.tf, as it is first denominated in key, which in terns denominated in ref, which is, at the end of the day, denominated in USD. So this suggestion will indeed affect the valuation of everyone's bp on bp.tf.

really should have more proof, downvote

I know everyone already said this but, yes indeed you need a lot more proof for one of the few currency in the game, this isn't enough.

Honestly, now that I am cashing out I find what he is saying is pretty damn true

Backpack USD value of backpack.tf is inflated like hell. I've only sold about $300 of items, but my backpack dropped $500. Crazy.

Still I will stay neutral, we need more proof. Your mind is in the right place however.

So because you're to lazy to do math we should alter the lifeblood currency of an entire economy based upon no evidence other then this website valuing your backpack incorrectly? If you want an easy way to determine true backpack value.. go to your profile read how many buds it says you have worth, and multiple that number by bud value whatever buds are realistically selling for in paypal. Problem solved... this is my last comment I'm too fed up with explaining basic concepts of multiplication to people and defending my decision to "downvote" like my life depends on it.

As much as I like the price refined metal going down and down, you need WAY more proof for setting the price of the most commonly traded item in the game. No unsolds shown at 29 & 30 to qualify removing it from the range.

Downvoted and asked others to downvote as well until further sufficient proof is provided.

You have no proof for .28$ and .29$ so clearly your not showing the counter-proof

Downvote

Please prove that .29-.3 does not sell. Until then, downvote.

No... I think that you don't realize that the proper way to change prices has changed since you were on here... A year ago. Just close this already.

Look: Your proof is inadequate. You haven't disproved sales at .29-.3 or strongly supported your low end. And to top it all off, you're being an asshole to everyone in the comments, for no reason at all. Your suggestion went downhill a long time ago.

I know Refined sales can be a bit scarce, but you need much more then three links for your lower end; either change the suggested price or get more proof.

Downvote.

I think that 0.26 - 0.27 might be more representative of where the market is leaning towards

Refined has no USD value on it's own. It's price is based of the price of keys. Key prices in refined go up, refined prices in USD go down.

this is the strange thing about refined pricing. it's the basis of backpack value yet to prove its value you have to use pricing from a very niche market - 17 trades that will effect the value of the entire economy (as seen via backpack)

USD value should be assigned to keys (and proven as such) along with refined and refined $$$ price could then be inferred from the price of keys. keys are the #1 money->pixel transaction and therefore would be the best place to establish actual USD value.

basing the value of the economy off of 17 trades in a niche market is just plain weird.

i totally agree with your axiom but not the proof.

I agree with the suggester and I find the people who simply ask for more proof without considering anything the suggester said very annoying.

just to mention, i know everyone must be so upset when the ref value changes as their bp value will drop consequently. however, its just a valuation based on obsolete price. when u someday cash out, the valuation on bp is not going to be what u get anyways.

your right with unusuals, but this is too little proof for a currency item, and he has no counter proof, so clearly, a down vote

he does not provide many links doesnt mean the proofs are few. There are multiple trades led by one single link.

moreover, as i said, the volume of trade is not big, regardless it is a currency item. so, wt he is showing is a very large proportion of the actual transactions going on in the free market.

for counter-proof, the op has explained below. the gist is since the free market, mostly in the form of discussion forum, does not show unsuccessful trades like trading sites do.

He still need to show that they aren't selling for .29-.30$ i mean its easy to show that people are selling for less, but doesn't actually mean, it is unsuccessfully selling for what it's priced for, and on my opinion, I think it is rather easy to get refined for .28-.29$ so i'm still against, and i don't think i stand alone. if there was more proof and even counter proof i could see where he/she is going with this

If this gets passed, no hope for backpack.tf

Proof is just embarrassing. We do not care about Earbud and Key conversions, we care about the true value of refined. If the conversion does not add up, then why not go and resuggest Key to Refined price, and Buds to Key price.

The issue seems to be over-inflated keys, not refined being too expensive.

What is embarrassing is that this have been kept open for over 1 day. His .25 links are invalid/quicksold.

Absolutely agree.

~~And where are Cleverpun warning comments?~~ Come on, it's a shame!

"We do not care about Earbud and Key conversions, we care about the true value of refined."

And that's why people who don't trade in PayPal should not be commenting here. Refined has no value on it's own. It's value comes from the value of keys. A key is currently at around $1.80. If a key sold for 3 ref, refined would be worth $.60 each. If it sells for 7 ref, it would be worth $.257. Every time the price of keys go up in refined, the value of refined goes down. We don't just make up these prices.

Let me explain a few things about what the refined price on backpack.tf means. Unlike all the other suggestions on the site, NOBODY that trades in PayPal comes here to see what the refined price is set at before they make a trade. If you started a trade with somebody and quoted this site, you would get laughed at. This site has no credibility in the trading community when it comes to ref/key/earbud USD prices. There is no site that sets those prices. It's one of the few free markets in TF2 trading. The only people that would ever use this price as a base is new players. So now you have new players that think that $.29 is actually a great price and are getting ripped off because they are trusting this site.

The only thing that traders use this USD price is for overall backpack value. This is one of the only websites that gives backpacks a USD value. It's very useful when buying somebody's entire backpack off of them. But as the site currently stands, it can't even be used for that. The values are not even close (my own bp shows around $450 more than it should). The only actual real use to traders that this price that we are setting has is for overall backpack pricing.

So as I said? Go change the value of Keys and Buds.. instead of refined. Leave the price of refined where it is, unless you have adequate proof to alter the price. Obviously you made this entire suggestion on the basis of "my backpack isn't showing the correct value let me go alter the price of refined to fix this"

And yea.. new players are totally doing TONS of paypal trading following this site. Honestly anyone who goes to backpack.tf for paypal advice has no idea what they are doing.

Please stop wasting my time, and everyone elses instead next time make a suggestion with enough proof listed.

"Go change the value of Keys and Buds."

That's what I'm doing. I'm changing their price, in USD. And this is the only way to do it. It's how the website is designed. Brad did say he wished he could set the value of keys in USD instead, but it's not possible to give them a USD value and a refined value.

If you are going to resort to personal attacks, I'm not going to discuss this with you. Come back when you grow up.

You know an argument is won the other guy starts making insults.

They can't think of anything else and start making personal attacks LOL

How is $0.02 more being ripped off?

LOL

That's $.14 more per key. I would kill for that kind of profit on a per key sale. And it's actually closer to $.03 per refined, which is $.21 profit per key. As it stands right now, I will sell an unlimited amount of refined at $.26. If somebody wants to buy it, I'll sell them more refined than they can fit in their inventory at that price. That's why I know the price is right.

everything is valued with refined in its absolute form... great, if this gets passed, everything is going to be worth a whole lot less, this seems to be turning out like those comics and stories where a noob buys a key and then gets "scammed" with an offer of unusuals

If this would pass everything priced in buds and keys would be priced somewhat accurate in $, atm it's overinflated. But that should not be the point of this suggestion.~

I think the price is stable.

need more proof

Downvote from me, not nearly enough proof.

Why hasn't this closed yet?

controversy :u

Refined was not $1 then. Keys were $1.20-1.25 each at that time. Refined was around $.45 each. I remember those prices very well. If you'll look up the page, you'll actually see the price suggestion where I set the very first refined price that was set by vote. Before then, Brad set it by himself.

Dude get the counterproofs (unsold at current range) please

I very much support you as i do know keys are traded below 2 usd in free market and the current refine price in usd does not add up to 7 ref a key. but you have to show them the proof to shut their mouth

It's pretty much impossible to show that somebody isn't selling any. There is no item trail like normal item trades. And a lot of cash traders keep the bulk of their inventory on alt accounts that nobody knows about. The only way to know is to add the person as your friend and ask them if they are selling any at that price. The majority are going to lie if they aren't. That's why I chose to prove that it is selling for the price that I suggested and not chase people around that are going to lie to me anyway.

er... what? there was no backpack tf when I started ...

edit: wait.. I never stated a date? how can you suddenly assume when "then" is?

It's like all of these people commenting against your suggestion have never tried to sell refined for cash.

I guess 90% of the voters/commentors have never sold any ref for cash, and so did some of the mods.

But with some common sense you can at least make a reasonable judgement, which should be enough to vote.

What I noticed from this

1. Half the people who comment here don't even use Paypal for trading

2. Any comment with no sense except for "This shouldn't pass, DOWNVOTE" = Like

3. Any comment trying to explain the suggestors logic = dislike

Actually take the time to read the comments instead of downvoting.

Refined metal is hard to get proof with, as people hardly sell refined metal for cash.

I don't see how is this a "test" when the proof is terrible and his low-end is a quicksell/invalid along with .26

i dun see how terrible the proof is. i know some of the "experienced" user will find it insufficient because you have seen the old suggestions. Just because the last one is thorough does not mean this one is not sufficient. Its inferior but not necessarily insufficient. and regardless the quality of the proof, u cannot deny there are lots of people commenting here simply drop down "proofs bad, downvote" without even consider what the op said and actually clicking the links, so as to defend their bp value. So to me it seems a test but if u dun think so, its perfectly fine coz this is not the point of interest here.

I wonder if you clicked the links now. I clicked it all myself and provided counter-proof above. Please look at it, its not hard to miss my comment, its big enough I believe.

This suggestion was 3 months ago...

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/528652b64cd7b851698b456b

Look how many links that suggestion had.

You never suggested on price of an item. Also, I believe you are actually relatively new to currency suggestion and suggestion itself here on bp.tf

Again I will say that his .25 links are invalid/quickold.

.26 seems like it as well.

.27 is on the middle of being a quicksell and not being one.

oh start playing the "experience" card

I have looked at the link u provided above, it has a lot of links and is sure more thorough then the one here. but does that mean this one is "not enough" because the last one "has more"?

Also, I have looked at your counter-proof. I dunno why a person being not online for around 10 hours make the trade invalid. Plus there are still refined left in their bp, meaning that they are not as quickselling as you people are trying depict.

Lastly, stop judging ones word by his background.

$.26 is not quicksell pricing. As I have stated, I will sell 5,000+ refined at $.26 if anybody is interested. Which is, of course, the price that I am suggesting. I can turn it into an outpost post if it makes you happy. $.24-.25 is the BUYing range and $.26-.27 is the SELLing range. $.24-.27 is actually a better range, but you guys would have really got pissy if I posted that. Not including $.25 in this range because it's the "quicksell" price would be the same as not including 7 ref in the current key price. Because 7 ref is the current quicksell key price.

If it is "hard" to get proof with, how come other suggesters got that many in the old ones? Please do learn how currency suggestion works here before posting anything about it. Also, read the counter-proof I give above. His low-end is invalid/quicksold. Along with .26

if u look at the "old ones" there were only a few links (i.e. 4) for the low end, which did not flare much better than the op here.

if every suggestion has to have the same amount of proofs as the last one so as to get passed, why dun we set a rule for it? As long as the proofs are legit and over a certain quantity, I think we can take that as a yes.

Because the old ones have been horribly wrong and overpriced. I'm probably one of the few cash traders that actually gives a damn about trying to make sure the price here is right.

i feel like this should have closed a long time ago

So this is what the internet mob is like...

TORCHES AND PITCHFORKS HERE GET YOUR TORCHES AND PITCHFORKS

Downvote (generic needs more proof)

hmm if you actually had torches and pitchforks to sell you'd be rich by now :o

If there isn't enough proof that the price should be changed, then why is it a wise idea to suggest change in the first place. Even if you have logic on your side it isn't enough to cut it. You're better off just waiting for more people to join the market.

Downvote.

P.S. Please close this, it's been a day and the vote seems one-sided just from looking at the comments.

Close it... You don't have enough proof... Stop wasting both time.

Get more proof then come back. Downvote.

More proof needed. + That would destroy the current economy.

How so??????

Upvoted. Will make backpack values more accurate.

Just thought I should put these two out there.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15824878 --> Last add 1 week ago, apparently added to buy his/her last refined.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16686117 --> Added for 7 ref 1 day ago.

More pr00f

A few links and weak conversation arguments to make biggest change of all times in refined, the backbone of the tf2 mannconomy?

I don't think so man, you need way more than this to convince me for a change this huge.

Counter proof.Quantity was low anyway but i saw how weak of a suggestion it was when i checked your "proof"

If you want to change price, you have to search for proof that .29,.30 etc. saying key is this prices, buds are this prices, so ref should be this prices, here have this weak "proof" as well meant and will always mean jackshit here.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17791666 Sold out.Sell something below the market and this is what happens; it gets sold.Doesn't indicate a market price shift.

http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=27138.0 Stock out.Does not indicate a market change

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16780426 What is he selling when he has 0 ref in his BP?

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17413127 Russian, his sourceop "rep thread" is literally copied from a shortening so it does not work at all,"you go first","you pay fees","you send gift add notes", no one would trade this guy so his price has little to no value as proof.

http://forums.sourceop.com/threads/149284-Keys-for-1-60-Refined-for-0-25-(No-Rep-Required)-Bulk-buy-preferred A buying thread? Opened on 20 aug? Which had 3 posts on last 4 months? What is this? A joke?

I could easily go on since thoose were the 5 first links i randomly clicked, but i really dont feel like wasting more time here

" Sold out.Sell something below the market and this is what happens; it gets sold."

Somebody selling below the price I am suggesting sells out fast? Of course they do. I would not deny that is a quicksale price.

"What is he selling when he has 0 ref in his BP?"

He has keys that can be instantly turned into 7 refined each. That's how I would do it, because I'm not carrying around refined that has very little demand.

"What is he selling when he has 0 ref in his BP?"

One guy bought him out at $.25 (which is why this is the bottom of the price suggestion). But he does have keys and can convert, just like the one above.

"no one would trade this guy so his price has little to no value as proof."

The guy that has 50+ pages of steam profile rep, over 2,000 hours of TF2 (1,000 in G Mod), has 195 games, 300 friends, and a $400 backpack. I would have no trouble at all trusting him to sell refined to me. Rep threads mean nothing compared to credentials like that.

I'll give you the buying thread. That one has reasonable doubt. Of course, you actually hurt your own argument since that was the guy offering to buy it for the highest price. Nobody has buying threads over $.25.

people aren't buying at full price due to the huge amount of refined in game and wanting to make it worth while.. it's like that for all currency

One of the biggest forums for selling player to player items is down for maintenance atm (I.E. SourceOP).

TF2oupost and other smaller community trade sites aren't going to cut it since they aren't known to specialize in it. Basically what I am saying is don't value how flower shop owners are doing by getting data from sales at gas stations.

Actually, I've always gotten more sales through outpost than SOP. Both have quite a large cash trade community. BUT, I did include the last SOP refined threads that were active. So SOP's trades are still accounted for, even though the site is currently un-postable.

with key prices as they are, and backpack.tf valuing backpack prices via refined, i think refined needs a reduce in order for backpack.tf to stay accurate.

"Actual USD values of currency:

Earbuds: $34-35

Keys- ~$1.80"

This ^^^

Very easy to find links that support this.

but for real, no one wants their bp price to go down. even all these people agreeing, you dont. and well some are saying its easy to find, well plz post it.

Your backpack value has already went down. This is just making the site value your backpack correctly instead over over-valuing it.

I have to agree with tl_34 on this one - I buy BP's in my spare time and devaluation of currency is a hot topic when I talk to the sellers.

Buds =/= 40$

Keys =/= 2.07$

Refined =/= 0.30$

But the actual selling prices are kinda in the air - I.E. Monday - Wednesday refined can be found at 0.25 - 0.27$ and keys at 1.80$ - 1.85$.

While on Fridays - Sunday refined generally hits 0.29$ and keys hit 1.90$+

Then there are special crafting events that mangle pricing but that's not important in this case, I would say that this price suggestion needs to be more wide at 0.25$ - 0.29$.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17802943 --> .29; 3 days old trade very recent. Seems like sold more than 10 refined at this price. History:

http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561197998441496 --> Currently 39 refined metal.

http://backpack.tf/id/76561197998441496?time=1391846400 --> Around 2 days back, date: 2014-02-08 had over 50 refined metals.

Seems like that .29 still sells and he has sold over 10 refined.

A whole 10?!?!?! If somebody sold 10 refined, I might as well close this now. (This is complete sarcasm if you didn't notice)

He sold 10 refined, maybe (No real way to track it). So, that's 1.4 keys. All the counter-proof you have come up with this entire 3 day thread is that one guy sold 1.4 keys worth of refined across a 3 day time period. That's the same as pointing out somebody selling 2 keys in a key suggestion thread.

For reference about the scale and volume of PayPal trading, I have moved over $2,000 worth of buds/keys/tickets this week alone. Just me. 10 refined is insignificant in terms of PayPal trading. The people that are selling in the mid range that I am suggesting ($.26) are probably moving 100-200 refined a week at the least.

How do you know that he even sold for PP?

http://www.tf2outpost.com/user/29416

Don't even try. Seriously. This community came into this suggestion wanting to vote no regardless of evidence. Over 1,000 refined sold in the suggested range and 45 under the suggested range? Disliked. Possibly 17 sold in the current range? Liked and paraded around like the best proof ever.

The only thing to do is to sit and wait for the admin's to make their decision.

Yeah it's pretty shameful, I learned that in key suggestions, community wants to hear what they want to hear :S

But I digress, with SoureOp out of the game and 2 sellers from backpack.tf forums itself, I think this is sufficient. I have no experience with PP trading, so take my word as a grain of salt.

This is an interesting situation. I agree with your logic. Ref really shouldn't be $.30 or whatever it is when keys are 7 ref and sell for $1.80 (and keys are traded for paypal much more then ref is). But then again, I also agree that price suggestions should not be based on logic. If ref sells for $.30, even if it makes no sense whatsoever, then that must be it's price.

I wonder if it would make sense to change the website so that you can suggest a money value for keys instead of for ref. Essentially give keys 2 prices, and ref price and a paypal price. Again, keys are traded for paypal literally hundreds of time more than ref is, so it seems like we should be basing the market off that, not the occasional ref sale.

That is just my 2 cents, it might be a stupid idea, but I think of it whenever a huge argument over ref pricing comes up, as often happens.

You have made a great point. This is exactly how bp.tf has done nothing in attempt to solve this problem. One one hand, those moderators keep emphasizing logic does not apply when it comes to price suggestion, whereas the USD value of key is directly calculated based on its exachange rate with ref on trading sites and the ref s USD value. One hand no logic; one hand arithmatic. What you have said can help improve the accuracy of the site but I doubt if those people will actually do so, provided that some of them are active traders and conflict of interests may be involved

On a side note, once the key price is set right, the valuation of one s backpack should be based on keys but not refined becoz as u said keys are more actively traded for USD and if I am cashing out, certainly I will first covert all my assests to keys but not refined. Therefore, caluclating the bp price based on how many keys the bp can convert then using the USD key price as mutiplier can make a more accurate bp valuation.

I am sick of seeing an over valuation of my mp on bp.tf, it is just fooling oneself

Ref sells for .30 check my counter-proof above. Also, just got this as well.

http://i.imgur.com/JyFmfze.jpg?1

7 ref only in a few days

well that does not sound like a market clearing price to me

Best proof 2014. You've re-opened this vote several times. Dafuq.

He did not?

Hmm Close it...

Well, one time more, the moderation of this site has been weak. Show the tendence of this site to low the price of the refined and up the price of the key.

#ModsIt'sAShame

Weak because we let this open a few days?~

Also as the op said, keys sell fine for 1.8$ or for 7 ref, 1.8/7 = ~0.26$ would be the logical price and the market slowly heads to it. That's the market tendence and the site just represents that.~

If it's any consolation, I understand the situation I have put you guys in and wish there was a better way of doing this.

Also, do I win some kind of award for most "dislikes" in a single suggestion?

You can never compete with longs key suggestions. But enough off topic.

I don't saw any suggestion accepted for logical price yet, just one for the Backpack Expanders, and that was without any proof.

There were a few more but we try to avoid this as much as possible. And this suggestion will not be accepted just because of that.~

Yep, I know. But there aren't so many users supporting the suggested range, like with the Key's suggestions.

Anyway, if this suggestion still open for 3 or more days, will repercute in the market, and the people will sell for less. That's my point of view.

The whole point of this suggestion is that people were already selling for less, and that is why it is up regardless of how many people are whining and complaining about it. The current range is clearly not right and no one has been willing to counter-suggest.

I doubt that bp.tf has a big influence on the $ market.~

Wut is this.

First: Poor proof should be closed immediately.

Second: Doing this will totally destroy the market as everyone will lower the price until the market crash.

Third: After this I bet people will open suggestions saying that the key price must go up because of this.

Totally corruption here this should stop. Mods should close until Proof is provided I dont sell ref but rules here poor proof=Close no logic.

Second: Doing this will totally destroy the market as everyone will lower the price until the market crash.

These kind of comments that has totally no economic base does not get warned.

Can you please explain how lowering a suggested trading price to reflect the actual market clearing price can trigger a price war between ref sellers? I'd love to know.

If he would have posted that statement alone I would have warned it.

Supporting. Several selling for $0.25 with plenty stock and rep. And logic supports you too

As we have seen with keys in the past, commonly traded price points should be in the range regardless of how fast something sells at that price. There has been more proof of sales shown between $.25 and $.27 than there has been counter proof of $.29-$.30. Frankly, I don't see why anyone would pay $.29 when they know how many people are selling for less (the poster even offered to sell all you want at $.26. I understand this suggestion will upset a lot of people, but by no means should it be closed without sufficient proof that $.28+ is anything more than an anomaly. There is a reason mods don't always listen to the majority.

That is the kind of comment that earns warnings.

hey, if any of you have ever taken the time to notice, i am pretty sure that SOMEWHERE on the site it says that prices are a SUGGESTION, and people do not have to buy/sell at the prices that are listed here

what is your point then? the suggestion does not have to be accurate?

what i am saying is, these price suggestions mean nothing more than a suggestion as to what OTHER people buy/sell at except to those people who use bp.tf as a bible on trading

I bet it is not the bible but it should aim to be, thats why accurate suggestion and valuation is important for this GUIDE.

What you are saying is that people do not have to follow bp.tf to trade so the price there is not important if it is accurate. Is that so?

We aren't here to predict the future. The point of the site is to show suggested prices based on the market value. Proof matters, your opinion does not.

Thank god someone has actually said that! Well done sir :D

thanks mate)

No problem :D