Suggestion: Mann Co. Supply Crate Key at 7–7.11 ref

A: Sellers are always nice, however, when it comes to keys; buyers are a much better indication of the market. Since there are so many buyers at 7.11 refined, then that means that there's obviously more than just a few moving at that price. Not to mention that seller trades often do not have comments of "added" because most do not take the time to comment it.

Q: I just bought a key for 7 refined today, shouldn't that invalidate this entire suggestion?

A: First, I am not removing 7 refined from the range that keys most commonly sell in, I am simply making it the low-end. Secondly, no a couple personal experiences buying a key for 7 refined does not determine an entire market...otherwise that would mean these buying at 7.11 refined would mean keys are 7.11 refined.

Q: Why are you raising keys? Remember when they used to be 3 ~~2.66~~ ~~2.33~~ 2 refined?

A: Yes, yes I do. Unfortunately, I woke up today, and realized it was the present, and that means I am aware that at any moment I could sell a key for 7 refined or more within a minute, and that is just an observation that seems to go unnoticed by people that call for the prices of the past. Prices change in real life, too. *back in my day coke was only a nickel, and I could go to the movies for only a dollar!*

Q: Why do you have so many keys? You're obviously just trying to manipulate the economy.

A: I have a lot of keys so that I may buy items. Surprisingly a lot of people want keys for their items, so that's what I buy them with. If I wanted to manipulate the economy, then I wouldn't do it with keys because if I want to buy keys with the refined I make from flipping items, then I have to make more and more refined in order to buy another key.

Q: backpack.tf is corrupt.

A: That's not a question, but if you think it is corrupt, then don't use it. Create your own spreadsheet, with hookers and blackjack! (Thank you to those who got that Futurama reference)

Q: cleverpun keeps warning my comments, that nazi/facist/dictator!

A: Again, not a question. The way to not be warned is to stay on the topic of discussing keys in a civilized manner. No name-calling, no swearing, basically just have the manners of a third grader. Also if you're going to make a comment, then please have it be either supportive or constructive with some sensible reasoning behind it.

That's all, comment/vote away! ♥

Good proof upvote

You reviewed all that in 3 minutes?

Not NEARLY ENOUGH PROOF You need atleast 50-100 more links breh

Downvote

You're telling me you viewed all those links in the 4 minutes I had this suggestion up? I'm guessing you didn't click on a single link, and simply scrolled down, and thought I didn't have enough, but there's little need for 150 links verses 50+ links since no one ever sorts through them all, regardless.

I don't think viewing the current links is the issue here, you're trying to up the price of a currency item and you really do need more proof. as someone said below, he can see all your links without scrolling on his ipad :|

Please tell me, what are the point of links? To be there for show? Do you just count them and think "oh, only 50 links? No, I'll only upvote if it reaches x amount of links. I don't actually care to look at them, I'll just be satisfied when I see that x amount of links."

Since when did suggestion links become quantity over quality and purpose of the links? As I already replied to d0, I am perfectly fine stuffing my suggestion to the brim of 7 refined sellers as he did on his, but that serves little purpose because this is not a matter of dropping 7 refined from the range, it is about including 7.11 refined.

I'd be fine sitting down and reviewing 100+ links for key sales :|

Well that is your opinion, I always see currency suggestions having about double the links you have, 7 ref sells average, but in MY opinion, since you have your own, I like to see more links proving a point. Down goes the boat.

You are asking what the point of links are? Seriously? PROOF. Dude there are Hundreds of keys being sold on outpost. if not thousands. You should have some more proof.

I'm not asking for the point of links, that was a sarcastic point. The point I was trying to make is that on all the previous suggestions you'll notice that most of the links that make up the suggestion is just a bunch of filler of people buying for the current price which is rather self-explanatory and pointless since the point of this suggestion is to add 7.11 refined to the range, not remove 7 refined. Nevertheless, I'm currently working on gathering more links. I'm not posting them until I finish assembling.

agreed, more proof that are not bots or ads that also list "buying for 6.88" along with their selling for 7+

Also, we should find more proof thats not just outpost, everyone knows outpost is always buy low and sell high.

Well he's only putting it up 0.05 ref

But it's still a downvote for me.

"I don't care about proof"

...

I just lost all faith in every none-colored name in the world.

I have 25 suggestions accepted and almost 2000 points. And you're white belt.... I should judge you for that? Nope.

And I just said what almost all the users who downvoted it think. Or all the users checked the proof? There are at least 90% of blind upvotes/downvotes. Including mine. Please don't say things without any sense.

You're basically stating that the voting system isn't valid because you believe people will blindly vote based on pure emotion. If you're going to basically imply the voting system is useless because its clouded with "blind" opinionated votes, then why even use it in the first place?

I said what the vote system is useless? Nope.

First, I don't believe, I know what people IS voting blindy.

Second, voting system is very useful for other suggestions. Key suggestions are generally stupids, because the mods don't take the people's vote.

Third, I use this because it's the best site for tf2 prices, don't care if there is a mafia who wants to down the ref price and up the key price.

The Refined suggestion was accepted in 1 day! How you, or woifi, or cleverpun, or anyone can explain that? eh? Because was a great suggestion and KoDoRiN did a great job and bla bla bla... Yes, KoDoRiN did a great job, yes, I upvoted that suggestion, but the mods shouldn't accept a suggestion for the Refined metal in 1 day.

And you're saying what almost all the people who voted saw the proof? I don't see any trade with 3000 views. Don't be a nescient please, and accept it. You can get lucky and this suggestion will be accepted. Or simply give to the mods some keys and they will accept it. I wont reply again.

"The peoples vote."

Without quoting philosophy left and right I'll just say this:If you let someone do what they want with a price, lets say a computer.They will lower it to a few cents. Why? Because they want it. If you ask the people to set a price, they will blindly manipulate it. It takes people like Baloo, cleverpun, woifi, and KoDoRiN to set the RIGHT prices. ./endrant

"The Refined suggestion was accepted in 1 day!"

That's because the previous Refined suggestion was up for the day. Woifi himself said that Refined are ~.26-.28 when he closed's tl's suggestion found here: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/52f522854dd7b8ec778b4568 --> http://puu.sh/7454W.png and then I came in with the perfect range and the mods (I assume) had a long discussion that .26-.28 is a better range so that's why it got accepted in a day.

Another example is my only closed key suggestion found here: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/52a50c464dd7b853308b4568 --> http://puu.sh/745jc.png

My suggestion was far too conservative, and then someone came in with the perfect range: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/52a8a4fc4dd7b8eb788b4568

Note the huge difference of the votes

http://puu.sh/745mV.jpg http://puu.sh/745nN.jpg

So yeah hope that clarified some things ;)

Whoops a slight typo here at "That's because the previous Refined suggestion was up for the day." Meant to say "That's because the previous Refined suggestion was up for a week."

The most solid price atm from what i've seen is 7-7.11 ref

I find more 7.11 sellers than 7 ref but in trade servers you can find quite a bit.

Regardless, you need more links. tf2 outpost got a crazy amount of sellers and buyers for keys and i dont think a few links are gonna prove anything.

Downvote

Well, selling at 7 refs is almost a quicksale from what i have been experiencing. Even 7.11 refs go quick. I don't know about this.

A small bump is better than no bump at all

Can't imagine the hate backpack.tf would get if we jumped it up to 7.22 flat

Because there isn't any proof for 7.22 flat..

Not here, because this suggestion isn't suggesting 7.22 flat or even in range

Put a key up for 7.22 and see how well it sells. Have fun

keys just sell quick, not sure raising the price is always the solution.

I do agree that the price is out of date, 7.11 is an easy buy/sell now: http://i.imgur.com/nr3g3q5.png However... Your proof is quite skimpy. I would suggest adding quite a few more links.

I don't know why the price is not 7.11 already, because if you try to add someone who is selling a key for 7 ref in like 5 minutes after them posting it on backpack.tf it's gone.

If i may through in my two cents: I feel it is easy enough to buy keys at 7 ref (did it today) on trade servers if not on outpost/here (which many consider to be a service and many would gladly spend an extra scrap simply to get it in the bp instantly). Second for most item trades keys are taken as 7 ref. Both lead me to believe key prices should not go up. if we start seeing sales at 7.33 on outpost and scrap.tf then perhaps we need a raise. again my 2 cents

In response to easy buying at 7 ref, i get about 1 every 3 days, which is not alot for a currency item.

7 ref is a quick sell and hard to buy .......... UPVOTE !!!!

Hey, people that don't scroll down, scroll down

Baloo added hundreds of more links to prove this range

7.11 is possible to sell at, and there are many people willing to even buy for that price

7 ref pops up in the backpack.tf classifieds from time to time and I've bought a few on trade servers for 7 ref, so range seems fine

Upvote from me (inb4 500 dislikes)

At first I figured that you don't have nearly enough proof for a currency suggestion, but then I thought; if people are buying keys for 7.11, it must be for the purpose of resell for higher. I'm thinking that buyers are much better proof than sells because they are known for buying below the common trade point. It may be difficult to make a call as to how the suggestion will go. In case of causing massive disliking, I'm not going to state my vote.

I honestly did not expect a Q&A for a price suggestion justification.

Fascinating.

Totally agreed, in last days (3 or 4 days) i am no seeing more anyone selling at 7.00 and i tryed to buy in outpost per 7.00 and 1 day later i just buy 1 key ONLY 1, for me 7-7.11 still are low price bcuz now i can see 7.11-7.22 a good price to buy these keys and 7.33 is little high price to buy but i can see a lot of guys selling at this price then it's the way we are going to 7.33 maybe in 1 month or less.

About f-ing time someone made this suggestion, key prices desperately need to rise, even though i buy many at 7 ref, i still can sell many at 7.33 ref upvoted

...

Might want to add a bit more proof though, you can probably find a bit more

Just my 2 cents, but backpack.tf will NEVER be able to accurately determine the price of keys.

People will always sell/buy for 1-2 scrap higher, and then there's some outrageous people selling for 3-4 scrap higher and those troll posts asking for absurd prices to make a point.

That is because you can sell almost ANYTHING for a rec above normal price, but raising a popular currency should be a lot harder since

1. Not all trades are keys to ref trades, a lot are 2 keys for item + ref and there I've only seen people counting with keys as 7 ref

2. It is a well-known fact that prices are always a little above bp.tf and be amazed; they haven't been rising tremendously when bp.tf didn't update their prices! What a surprise!

Frankly I think people have had enough of the horrible dealers that tries to push scraps outta keys to get a penny a day. Take other opportunities; I bought S. Grenades for 5 ref and sold for a key.

>I bought a key for 5 REF<

Think about that for a second before you go back to buying keys for overprice. I mostly run out of refined because people give me so many keys to handle.

Someone show me the links to the 7 Ref sellers cuz, um, i'm not seeing it. Honestly, this needs to be 7.22 Ref flat - just do a little search on OP is all the proof u need . . . . and on Classifieds 1 whole seller for 7 Ref and 1 whole seller for 7.11 Ref - all others 7.22 and above - not rocket science here people

For me 7 ref is the perfect price for a key. If you scrapbank every kind of weapons (worth from 0.05 to 0.11 ref) you'll obtain one 7 ref

Lol - this has been open so long u may want to change it to 7.22 - 7.33 - seriously,

downcoat from me.

400th comment :P And I agree that the key sells for more, but the amount of keys on the market, and the price of keys are BOTH going up... WTF MARKET!!!

I dunno man. I feel as if this isn't quite a lot for a currency proof.

Quite a daring attempt to say the least, although I do agree that the range is more than adequate, managing to sell multiple for 7.11 in less than a minute. Let's see how this goes, I guess.

Yeah. Many people are starting to sell (mostly quick sales) at 7.11 Ref and the Scrap.tf Bots are buying for 7.11.

Only a matter of time before this thing goes up.

scrap.tf bots have been losing ref fast, and are completely out 75% of the time, staying neutral

Yeah, I'm going to go neutral on this.

I only believe they're doing that to inflate the key prices.

The lack of sellers/sold is making this suggestion look bad, sorry.

Neutral until more proof.

A lot more proof of 7.11 refined than your suggestion last week where a majority of your links just constituted buyers at 7 refined: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/52f507594dd7b810358b456b

If I really wanted to, I could fill my suggestion with the hundreds of 7 refined buyers to satisfy people's desire to simply scroll over links. Also since, your comment mainly addresses lack of sellers, I address this in my FAQ along with cleverpun's remark on your own suggestion: http://puu.sh/6Z33v.png

Unsuccessful buyers at 7 is pretty valid and important proof if you wanna bump up a price.

Except, I'm not dropping 7 refined from the range, so having unsuccessful buyers at 7 refined is rather pointless because its not aiding anything.

Ha, How many people do you see that sell thing on the low end of a range, and were talking about keys here.

He isnt removing 7 from the range. He only needs unsolds at 7 if he is saying 7 is no longer possible

Don't even need to scroll on my iPad. What is this?

A couple of the links, such as http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/14901748 are old and update prices often, so they aren't the best proof. However, you've made it clear people will pay 7.11 for 1 key. I haven't had to buy too many for ref as of late, so I don't know how often you can get for 7 as of right now.

I agree more sellers would be nice, primarily to stop the "ERMAGHERD BUTPAUT DUT TEE EFFF IS CURRRUPT" type comments.

EDIT: Haters, let's be honest, 19 keys isn't even that much to manipulate. He'd make a whole whopping 1.66 ref off it.

Anyhow, upvote.

Last bumped today, last online today, has ref and keys in stock, why is it invalid?

Not when I had posted that. I'd remove that bit but I can't edit at this point.

"cleverpun keeps warning my comments, that nazi/facist/dictator!"

This was my favourite FAQ. ;3

Reviewed the links, and sellers do matter, no matter what you say.

Besides that I'm voting with my personal experience in the last month that key prices haven't changed. Almost every other time I reload the main bp.tf page I see at least 1 sale for a key at 7 ref. I haven't spent more than 7 ref on a key in the last month and already bought 2 today for 7 ref. downvote for me

Its like I predicted a comment like this "a couple personal experiences buying a key for 7 refined does not determine an entire market...otherwise that would mean these buying at 7.11 refined would mean keys are 7.11 refined."

More proof probably needed, but I agree

I usually buy at 7.11 or 7.22

Anything under that sells quickly

More Proof Required.

No.

to be honest after reading all of the other comments I feel like 7.11 is not an easy sale. I've gone 2-3 days with out selling a key at 7.11.

Sure I didn't look at the links but down vote from me

At the time of this comment you currently have 0 keys in your backpack, and only 0.77 refined, not to mention that your trade is terribly structured if you're looking to sell keys since it is a buying trade: http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16602449 that looks like you're only buying for 6.33 refined.

If you had keys, then I provided plenty of eager people willing to buy from you for 7.11 refined.

Need way more proof

I dunno. It's not really hard buying for 7.

http://gyazo.com/22fcfee55990f591a492cd3dbc992a74

http://gyazo.com/89c29bf1ee3c03c316d5bd4dd0009e54

http://gyazo.com/f0c416a989dc8bb6ee8b6fed6115c247

http://gyazo.com/3a5ba780ff621834ee0d85d62c0899da

http://gyazo.com/5cd28c640aa6905341a15a344c65805b

^ All in the same day. I haven't really been active lately so this is what I could must for today:

http://gyazo.com/9c3f8e38d76b942ea4e36cd1583b902e

Why don't you have any keys or metal in your backpack?

Alt: http://steamcommunity.com/id/cumonstepitup

It doesn't matter if it's not hard to buy at 7. It's still in the range. This suggestion isn't proving it's impossible to buy at 7, just that people are willing to buy it at 7.11. It's fine and dandy that people will sell keys for 7 refined, but some may also buy and sell keys at 7.11.

It's not a matter of personal opinion, it's a matter of getting the right price out and showing how the market is acting. People are greedy beings and as such will always look for a way to put that extra little bit in their pockets, even if it's literally a penny at a time. Sad thing is, this is the truth about economics and the trading that goes on in TF2 is no exception to that.

I was simply stating my opinion..

From looking at the current market and the trends It really seems 7 is the MOST traded for price. People will always sell for higher than the dictated price in order to make profit, this is a generally accepted rule in the economy. While sales at happen at 7.11 it is a very negligible amount. It dosent take more than a few minutes to find a key for 7 ref, although some need the key immediately and pay for that conviencance. I have even see them pop up moderately on outpost for 7 ref. regardless I would need to see a lot more links for 7.11 to be convinced. Neutral till then

Other than Scrap.tf selling @ 7.11 and buying @ 7.22 I dont' see why it should go up. I trade lots of stuff everyday and I've been using 7 ref both for buying and selling stuff. I fell like that's the case of more and more people in this comment section, which leads me to think it's not adequate to increase the price already.

I mean, you remember when it was 2.33?

Please try to stay on topic regarding the suggestion. What is relevant here are; personal experiences on the key trades, additional proof, issues with the provided proof, counterproof against suggested range, and thoughts on what range is most appropriate based on these factors. Community opinion on these matters is extremely important and off-topic matters distract from them severely.

In order to try to keep discussion on-topic, spam and unnecessary off-topic discussion (including discussion of the broader economy) will be hidden. Abuse and rudeness will not be tolerated. For discussions on the economy and other tangential topics, we recommend the forums; http://forums.backpack.tf/

For discussion on keys in regards to the impact on the economy, this topic in particular is recommended;http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/6090-the-one-and-only-key-price-topic/

For concerns about how the site is treating comments in key suggestions, feel free to start a topic in the following forum; http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/forum/20-general-website-discussions/

These rules and guidelines apply to all key suggestions, past and present. In order to reduce potential confusion, the mod team is posting this summary in order to help bring attention to—and remind users of—these policies.

The key-conomy is an absolute warzone. So many people asking for more and more proof, arguing ensues. People agree with the suggestion, arguing ensues.

Jeez.

~~WHY CANT KEYS JUST BE 8 REF SO 1/2 A KEY ISNT SO AKWARD~~

definitely not enough proof for a currency suggestion

Not enough proof for a currency item, yeah we get that.

However, It is kinda hard to miss that even 7 ref is a QS.

On Outpost and Trade servers, All they want is 7.33 Ref for a Key.

I am going to Upvote, only because I know there are Greedy people out there waiting for +8 Ref.

you need proof for those sales on the trade servers to back up this claim you have here

I never said it was Proof.

I am just saying Go look.

Don't be lazy xD

im just saying, if you make a claim like that, you need the proof to back it up

No, if he wants other people to upvote based on his claim, he needs proof to back it up. Otherwise he's just showing his support of the suggestion due to personal experience, and he couldn't give a rats ass who votes with him.

Yeah, echoing above, not really enough proof.

On another note this is the most stable keys have been in a while

im just saying, but I think you need some more proof. I thought you needed a lot more for an item like this.

I thoroughly approve the ongoing route to separate key and metal in two completely different currencies that have nothing to do with eachother. The higher keys get, the higher new cosmetics will be valued over existing ones, making it easier for people to strike huge deals by simply piggybacking backpack.tf prices. Can't wait, hope it'll get there soon.

Of your 7.11 buyers, the following are a week old or more;

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17235572

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17844070

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15660208

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17187940

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/14901748

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/12098055

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17776683

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17833567

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17822387

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17270177

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17576348

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16889919

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17892706

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17820401

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17374538

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16897093

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17872320

Of your 7.11 buyers, the following are closed;

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18034099

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18015760

While the mods have accepted currency suggestions on buyers alone in the past, the links you have provided do not make the strong case that those suggestions did. I would have to agree with other suggesters that there should be more proof.

But those buyer links are recently bumped so they are totally valid, but yes, baloo, you should add valid buyers at 7 ref and successful sellers at 7.11 refined at least. They may help your suggestion only a bit proofwise but at least there will be less critical voices and more upvotes which is still a very important argument to get your currency suggestion accepted.

Do you know how hard it is to even find a seller trade at 7.11 refined? Most are bots that haven't been updated by their owners.

"updated" so you are saying that the price only changes after this suggestion is made? If so that goes against what backpack.tf stands for. to display the community prices. Suggestions in the making should not change the amount bots buy/sell for. This is what it has come to. People see a suggestion and start paying more. THEN they raise the price on the bots (or regular traders). See where I'm getting at.

There's already people paying more, this isn't about the suggestion. The reason I say they haven't been updated by their owners is because those bots are just stocked on all up on metal without keys. That either means they're successfully selling every key they get for more, or are not getting a lot of trade traffic. Either way that's still evidence to support the suggestion.

Any trade open that long has very likely changed their prices at least once. While it could be called "valid" I certainly would not consider it reliable.

They most likely changed their price from 7 ref to 7.11 ref what would support this suggestion even more. I really doubt they lowered their price recently.

I hope this suggestion does not stay up here for like 4 days and not get accepted or closed.

Key suggestions take time, also it just appeared on the front page, not it's time to get votes.

I thought bot links didn't count? All of the bot links are reselling for a higher price.

Not enough proof for an upvote. I want to see dozens more links before we start this cycle all over again.

Technically, it's blackjack and [i]then[i/] hookers, but that would be really nitpicky.

The last few suggestors had many more links than you, and they also made sure to include solds. This is a key suggestion, though, so I'll stay neutral and see where this goes.

I cannot find a single person selling at 7 ref

Literally everybody in the classifieds is doing 7.22 and the lowest as of typing is 7.16 (wow half a scrap holy shit)

I left trades up trying to buy keys at 7 ref for a day, nobody bit

It's happening

Try trade servers.

trade servers barely have people willing to sell for 7 ref, or i'm just going to the wrong servers.

Additional buyer links provided.

7.22 refined:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15845173

7.11 refined:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18034731 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18037492 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17991233

bot:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/13580249

7 refined:

Under 1 week old:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18008762 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17975634 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17950310

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17966648 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18025029 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18038048

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17945887 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18003626 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17959498

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17971531 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18015914 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18031740

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18036300 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17962809 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18025116

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18024089 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18003742 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18001213

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17990460 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18038354 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18018847

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17995314 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17997677 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17993490

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18034924

Over 1 week old:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17058567 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16806609 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17599363

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11851316 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17295156 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16670708

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17683913 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17611483 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17138363

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17946038 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17496557 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17327060

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17516794 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17100148 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17100168

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16598740 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17500167 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16036604

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17180416 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16713912 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17535498

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17854144 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17032252 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17825401

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16512298 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16822878 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17731855

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17783812 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17361141 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17622665

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15426185 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17653046 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15919148

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17473205 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17855503 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16269869

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17732616 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17870575 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17005630

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17204611 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17788068 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16974361

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17753299 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17726277 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16294696

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17757715 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17571177 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17199581

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16635233

bots:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16458267 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16307577 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16361347

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16361334 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17265108 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17118886

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/12729897 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17844256 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17977284

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16361345 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16361341 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16182706

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16361331 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16611210 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16611269

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16611334 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16611547 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16611587

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/12169061

More in the morning.

I quite like your new links, even if I've edged more towards the point of accepting the originals once I actually clicked on then.

Upgloat.

most of your 7 ref buyer got their keys :o

Its still part of my suggested range, so that should still be occuring

You have my upvote.

That's because sellers don't overly prove anything. Not to mention its a very annoying task to locate a selling trade that isn't 7.22+ refined in the first place. There will always be desperate people who may be willing to pay a scrap or two more for a key because that's how much the time to search for a cheaper key is worth to them, however, when multiple buyers appear buying for more, then it becomes more apparent that an increase may be in order. This is because they can no longer simply locate a seller at a higher price, and have simply resorted to paying more in order to attract the sellers to them instead demonstrating a stronger shift in the market towards a higher average selling price.

desperate sellers find buyers. Lazy buyers wait for the sellers to come to them.

You need to show the sellers at 7.11 if only to demonstrate how quickly they move for that price.

No need to bring up Silkee's swag in key suggestions

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/52b9352b4dd7b8f2548b456e

Passed with only sales and buyers, sellers aren't a need when making a correct key suggestion.

Except Bill's Hats are priced in keys...so if keys rise relative to refined, Bill's Hats rise relative to refined, too.

Still not enough proof. But I agree 7 ref is quicksell, for instance:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18043366 - the trader sold for 30 minutes around 4 keys I guess (he has some new refined metal and craft hats)

Agreed with others. Insufficient proof for a currency suggestion. This is the most commonly traded item in the game (asides from refined) and that's all the proof you have?

On a more critical inspection of your proof, 3 links for 7.22 refined is not at all enough to justify a bump in the key price. As far as I know, key price on backpack.tf is a suggestion that's mostly accurate +/- 0.11-0.22 ref, so just because you find a wall of proof of 7.11 ref doesn't mean it needs a bump to 7.11. There will be tons of solds at 7.11. There will be tons of solds at 6.88. There are probably a lot sold at 7.00.

Find tons of solds at 7.22, perhaps even 7.33 and maybe this can get a bump. Until then, downvoted. Yes, I downvote this suggestion with 145 keys in my backpack. Accuracy > profit.

7.22 refined isn't being included in the range. If you scroll up and down, then you'll see two more blocks of links. The amount of keys you have in your backpack doesn't matter. You're not truly gaining any profit if this suggestion is accepted since you could already sell your keys for 7.11 refined easily. You'd be more likely to downvote if you had more keys since key prices increasing means you'd have to flip more items in order to have enough metal to buy another key.

You went way over your head on the whole "me making profit" thing when that was just one sentence of my post. Good job missing the whole point.

The main point is just because you find a wall of links worth 7.11 doesn't mean that it warrants a bump from 7 - 7.11. I remember the mods saying their price ranges are suggestions that deviate from 1-2 scrap (for keys, more so +/- 1 scrap). By bumping to 7.11, you imply there are also sales from 6.88 to 7.22, and your proof of 7.22 is severely lacking.

And FYI, what or how I get keys is none of your business. I buy keys from the steam market when keys drop low due to steam sales, not from this refined market. And yes, I have seen your new proof up and down, and there are still not enough solds near the 7.22 range.

I have seen tons of key suggestions that have had key spike rises that I upvoted back when keys went up 1-2 scrap a week, since the proof that a raise was necessary was more than adequate. Your suggestion is nowhere near those suggestions in magnitude to prove that keys need a bump.

You basically proved that the previous suggestion 7 ref is still possible with your proof being mostly 7-7.11 ref, and the suggested price of 7 ref accounting that sales from 6.88-7.11 are possible.

Call me a troll if you want, but your proof is lacking.

Downvote.

1) I'm not taking 7 refined out of the range

2) I never asked where you got your keys, simply making a point that you wouldn't be profiting if this suggestion passed since I've already made it clear there are plenty of people who would already be happy to buy your keys for 7.11 refined. Therefore stating the amount of keys you own doesn't matter, and make you a martyr for downvoting

3) That's some highly flawed math skills to say 6.88 refined should be anywhere in this range since I've listed over 100, if not 200, buyers at this point paying more than that and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to sell a key under current backpack.tf.

4) I do not need additional proof of 7.22 refined, since it is not a part of my suggested price range. It is included in the proof to show that some people have started to buy for that amount, but not enough, and so that's the price where desperate or lazy people are now looking to buy keys instead of 7.11 refined.

If you want key price up higher than it is, you need LOTS of proof. +90%of the deals of 7 ref+are on outpost. you can, being patient find a key pretty quick in trade servers

Additional links provided

Buyers:

7.22 refined:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18045827

7.11 refined:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18034957 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17955880 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18035190

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18015983 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/9059312 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18046376

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17970900 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18040189

Bots:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15715501

7 refined and 1 weapon:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16043835

7 refined:

Less than 1 week:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18018773 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17926330 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18034564

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18038476 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17980736 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18039027

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17955846 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18040993 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17983674

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18024855 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17952794 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18014370

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18016216 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18035693 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17996670

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18016564 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17993207 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17953785

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18045727 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18045777 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17978313

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18037162 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17923297 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17949128

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17962483 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17876493 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18043971

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18025934 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17966865 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17967166

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18030875 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17390686 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18024760

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18031580 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18042635 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17955984

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18000168 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18040525 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18032130

More than 1 week:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17772532 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17024410 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16405335

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17889765 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17700129 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17734425

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16949783 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17708762 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15683095

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17821460 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17802423 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17434670

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17770571 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17470544 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17835178

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16082832 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17899395 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17668514

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17202740 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17312695 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17239725

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17886588 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15153939 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17544191

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17761816 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17700675 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17407317

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17742998 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17823361 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17741272

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17178201 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/14104719 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17655096

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17018280 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17303397 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17004161

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17515771 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17846355 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17573959

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15473057 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17673679 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17742937

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17936563 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16679301 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16886637

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17782170 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17050180 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17039575

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17473953 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17814201 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17715101

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15457089 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17061909 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17487780

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16477622 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15932652 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17812025

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17186351 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17721604 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16908283

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17803944 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17563008 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17053453

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17258584

Bots:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16369833 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15790507 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16361344

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16361340 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16307576 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16361338

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16361342 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16361346 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16361350

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16361337 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15754901 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18040905

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/13990056

Sellers: (all seller links courtesy of Kodorin)

7 refined:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18042871 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18042831 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18042211

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18041582 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18042030 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18042185

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18040577 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18041020 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18040853

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18040671 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18040292 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18040175

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18039978 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18039634 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18039158

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18038391 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18037889 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18037829

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18037312 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18036933 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18037266

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18036830 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18036175 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18035242

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18034935 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18034739

7.11 refined:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18035338 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18035851 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18035397

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18035848 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18036894 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18036201

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18042802 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18037910 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18039610

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18037981 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18036980 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18041245

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18042636 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18041906 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18042543

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18038493 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18040399 --> http://puu.sh/6ZuX3.png

7.22 refined:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18034896 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18037379 --> http://puu.sh/6Zvdh.png

7.33 refined:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18042041 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18035035 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18035384

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18041658 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18036778

Note: I tried to make sure that none of the buyer links were duplicates, but obviously I'm only human, so feel free to point out any duplicate links.

Guysz he haz 19 of teh keyz in his backPack hes obiously trying 2 raise BP price every1 Downboat

At what fraction of 7.00 to 7.11 trades would you consider 7.11 an outlier?

There's no set ratio as far as providing links, however, if you were supposedly able to find all the transactions of keys from purely metal to key transactions, then if 7.11 refined transactions do not constitute at least 35% of all sales, then I wouldn't consider it. I'm basing this off of the percentage of data covered within the first standard deviation of a normal bell curve ( http://www.ifa.com/images/12steps/step8/f8-1.jpg )

This would be assuming that the other side of the 35% would be constituted by 7 refined sales, but that doesn't seem true because I do not believe the data is so spread that 30% of all sales occur outside of this range in both directions. Its more probable that around 90% of sales are in-between 7-7.11 refined. How much of those sales are 7 refined as compared to 7.11 refined is unknown, but that's why I made this suggestion to try and show that there's a likelihood that there's enough of the 7.11 refined sales occurring that it should be included in the most commonly traded key price as listed on backpack.tf.

I apologize for the slow response, but every time I visit backpack.tf I have 10+ notifications because of this key suggestion, so I might be missing some replies. Sorry if this wasn't the answer you were looking for, and I would like to encourage people to comment their criticism of my statement if they have one rather than disliking this comment because, then I don't know what I've missed addressing, or if I am possibly thinking incorrectly about something.

Not a problem, it was a serious question, and I appreciate the response. Standard distributions are a reasonable baseline, but they don't work very well with ordinal data like this.

i bought ALOT of keys for 7 ref last week, and i have sold them for 7.22 ref

i am doing this to make a profit, that does not mean the price has changed. People accept that i want to make a profit, i also tell them that i am selling them for more than they are worth. stop changing the price of keys, let people who trade change it, not bots and outpost.

You literally just said that you have sold plenty for 7.22 refined, yet you see nothing wrong with that, and you cannot even see that you're the actual problem that is causing keys to rise. People that buy keys for current backpack.tf price, and then decide to simply resell them for higher, and when enough people do this overtime, then the amount of keys available at 7 refined begins to dwindle and more and more people begin buying for higher.

backpack.tf is a reactionary, third-party observer on keys. I would not be suggesting this price if it weren't because of people like you who sell their keys for over backpack.tf price multiple times a day and are successful in doing so. I suggest that maybe you look in the mirror and reassess your actions to be able to realize the implications of them.

i am also buying them for 7 ref one sec afterwards, sometimes people need keys, how the duck do u think a store works? do u think they buy for the same they sell for?

No, and that's why I'm making this suggestion, to show that people don't all buy and sell for 7.11 refined, and that people, such as yourself, are having success selling for 7.11 and 7.22 refined. I am not removing 7 refined from the price. I am showing that 7.11 refined gets traded enough to be included in the range.

You think the price should stay the same because you are buying for 7 refined, yet the fact that you are able to sell for 7.22 refined contradicts that and apparently you have the ability to just overlook that.

yes. It should stay like this. if you change the price im still going to do the same. i just know that you are doing this to get points on your profile so you can brag to your mom, its no point in changing it, the only thing you are doing is making it impossible for new players to also start tradeing, and for some trading is about profit and for other its about getting the stuff you want. I know that if you change the price ill be able to buy them for 7.11 ref and sell them for 7.33 its just how trading works.

The ignorance. Its too strong.

Let me try to spell this out for you as simple and as best I can.

You are buying for 7 refined.

That is backpack.tf price.

You are selling for 7.22 refined.

That is above backpack.tf price.

That is above this suggestion.

You are saying this suggestion would make it more expensive for people to buy keys.

You are making it more expensive to buy keys.

You are selling for more than the suggested price.

That is making it more expensive for people to buy keys. (notice the repitition)

You said if this suggestion passes, then you'll start buying for 7.11 refined.

You said if this suggestion passes, then you'll start selling for 7.33 refined.

That is making it more expensive for people to buy keys.

Also you can buy them now for 7.11 refined, other people already have buying trades open at 7.11 refined, as I've shown numerous time on this suggestion.

so true....

Gratulations. You kinda like did the opposite thing, that you were actually trying to reach: You gave Baloo small proof, because you sold keys for 7.22. That means, that your proof can be used to make key suggestion from 7.11 to 7.22. Good job.

no, i dont think you understand, the price might be 7-7.22 ref

but if it says 7.11 ref on backpack.tf they are going to be 7.11-7.33 ref

and when they see that and vote on the price to be 7.22 it is going to be 7.22-7.44

thats how it works on sites where you can have a trade open for months, nothing to loose everything to gain.

*deeed* WRONG. It says 7-7.22, but your brain's like: "OH! KEYS GOT UP. GONNA NEED PROFIT. LETS BUY FOR 7.11 AND SELL FOR 7.33!" Again, not backpack.tf or the suggestors fault, it's the seller's AND the buyer's fold, for selling and buying at these prices, just to get scrap profit.

*deeed* thats a nice buzzer.

you just dont get it.

Look down what I posted. It's not the sites fold. Its the buyers and sellers fold for scrapbank. I already got it, but you sir, are too blind to accept your mistake, that we made. And now please, don't respond anymore. You make yourself look like a fool.

Yes, think of the new players. The ones that go to the Mann Co. Store and buy keys right from there. The ones that go immediately to backpack.tf because they no of no other place to get prices. The ones that simply see that keys are worth 7 refined, and so they sell to people like you, LeClick. Only to later find out that they were jipped of a scrap or two because of people like you that went on to resell their keys for higher instead of using them for something else. People like you that solely buy keys and resell them higher not thinking of the consequences that people like you are driving key prices up. I'm not the one ripping a new player off a scrap or more because he didn't know he could have gotten that much more. That's you, LeClick, and people like you, and you can hide behind this grand idea of "knowing how trading works", but in the end, you're the one who's causing keys to rise. You're the one dwindling up the supply at 7 refined, and rather than investing the keys elsewhere, you're simply reselling them for higher. If people like you wouldn't abuse keys for the profit of a measly one to two scrap more than the current suggested value, then the price wouldn't need to rise.

This isn't only about you and how much you sell. It's about everybody who buy and sell at 7 ref and 7.11 ref. And as Baloo showed, there are a lot of buyers at 7.11 ref, thus the current price on backpack.tf (7 ref) is outdated and not 100% correct.

This suggestion is more accurate than the current price. That's what price suggestions are meant for, "to represent the market as accurate as possible".

that is whats happening

http://dispenser.tf/trade/78247/ started with 35 sets, had 14 left 1½ week ago. stocked it up with 54 sets. 1½ week later its back at 30 sets. thats 2.4 keys per day

Somone already said this, but scrap.tf is nearly always out of refined...so actually that buyer is invalid most of the time.

Furthermore: Have you tried to sell keys at 7.11 ref? It works, but let's face it. Keys are so commonly traded, it shouldn't take a day to sell 10 keys for a common price (that's what I experienced).

So downvote from me, keys are surprisingly stable at the moment and I don't see that many reasons why the price needs to rise.

False, I just checked this minute and scrap.tf has the capacity to buy 45 keys at 7.11 --> http://puu.sh/6ZWsT.png

Also 10 keys is a lot...

I'm used to sell 10 keys within 3 hours at regular price.

Damnit, I thought keys were getting stable. but that is a lot of 7.11 sellers...

oh and btw, metal goes down, keys go up. gg bp

Yep GG as If nobody noticed.

Yes, you're right. Its backpack.tf fault, its not like people were already selling refined for less or buying keys for more before the suggestions were made. Obviously a couple of random, proofless and baseless suggestions floated by that magically tried to manipulate and change them. Obviously its completely profit based because its not like there's numerous amounts of people already out there willing to buy keys for 7.11 refined or more, so this suggestion needed to be made in order for me to sell them for more metal.

I'm sorry if the sarcasm was laid on a tad thick, but I think you need to realize why its actually happening instead of just saying it happened and it must be backpack.tf's fault since it records trends after they've already been present.

I was fucking kidding baloo chill the hell out

"literally allowing the price to raise"

In case you had missed his extended list of buyers for 7.11 ref in both his original proof as well as more later in the comments you would notice how bp.tf still said 7 ref yet people are buying keys for more.

The market changes, prices go up and down. Deal with it.

Look man, what I mean is that if we never changed the prices of keys on the most influential trading site, yes, keys would still sell for little above seven refined, but it would slow the rise of keys.

Again keys havent risen at all, it's always 2.5$ from the steam and has never changed and is still the only way to obtain them.

This past weekend I sold 3 at 7.11 within an hour. There should be range for the key as there generally always has been even going back when it was stable for years around 2.44. ^vote

Also, Ball's thinking of mainly showing buyers definitely means this should pass and indicates a higher price is truer so stop complaining.

At some point the price will be high enough that no one will be willing to pay it; when that happens the price of keys will go down. Supply and demand. On the other hand though, I think the price of keys needs to be left alone for the good of the community. It may sound stupid, but it can be detrimental to keep voting the keys up. You can always find someone that sells higher than someone else or buys for more, but we need to stop inflating prices. That's my two cents.

Keys are always the same price 2.5$ from the store. It has never changed.

The difference here is that there are many many people buying for 7.11 ref not just a few. (scroll down the comments for more proof)

You must not understand the way the world works, then, because the price of keys in refined metal isn't rising, its simply rising IN PROPORTION to the amount of refined metal in existence. Back when they were 2.33, refined metal were much much rarer and worth more. Because you can find weapons and craft them into refined, it literally makes them a renewable resource. Which means they will continue to drop in value, making keys "rise".

Yes I understand, but at some point enough people will not be able, or will choose not to pay a set price. Who knows when that will be reached, but right now I think that keys have reached a happy equilibrium. Not too high or too low; they're at a near perfect spot of still taking some work to get to so that the monetary value of them is taken into account.

http://imgur.com/kXauJDl

Scrap.tf buys at 7.11 so you'd be stupid to sell at 7 ref

Upvote

if they have metal.

71 refined is a lot (͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Y-y-you sold a key for 8 refined...what...

scrap.tf is not really valid proof. Yes, scrap.tf does qualify as a top tier site which many people sell and buy items, keys, weapons, scrap, etc. But the thing is, its all programmed in the coding to automatically do so, no personal "human like" opinion of someone wishing to buy higher or sell lower. Its only what the bots seek to buy and sell if whats offered to them meets the criteria in the code.

Scrap.tf is not in any way bad. Oh heavens no! but the idea that scrap.tf qualifies for more than just average proof is bad.

As for this key suggestion, it has its strengths and weaknesses, the community can either poke holes in the weak spots or rebuild the strengths.Its in the hands of the community.

I can still buy keys for 7ref.. If somebody can to buy key for 0.11 or 0.22 ref more it isn't any proof because he do not want to waste his time for that small price. Sorry man but 7ref is still good price. Downvote.

Bots, rich players and scrap.tf is not a good proof. Know why? 2 hours after changing price to 7ref they were selling it for 7.11 or 7.22ref. Changing price will increase it only +0.11ref.

The issue which you are talking about "rich players" is that they are buying for 7.11 ref meaning many others can easily sell at 7.11 ref. 7 ref has also remained in the range.

Finally, someone dare enough to make this obvious suggestion.

7 ref sales within a minute, it's a quicksale.

Actually, even 7.11 is a quicksale. The price should be 7.11-7.22 atm, but this will be never accepted.

Anyway, the price must go up, it's really hard to buy for 7 ref, then what's the point of a such price.

UPVOOOOTE

i have a feeling that people will just downvote because they dont want key prices to go up... i think the only people that want key prices to go up are the key bankers

but people, seriously, bp.tf states that their prices are SUGGESTIONS, you can still buy at lower prices or vice-versa

anyway, nice suggestion

I, myself do not like that key value suggestions are rising, but this suggestion will get passed unless only 10% of the people upvote anyway

and he has good proof, with suggestions, you are supposed to vote based on the proof, not what you want, you are not the entire tf2 community.

Its been more than a month, if you go to the previous suggestion and mouse over the time each comment was made, then it will give you the exact times. The suggestion was made on December 30th and was accepted on January 3rd (at least that's when the last comment was made), so its been 45 days of keys being priced at 7 refined.

The past few key votes seem to have finished with about 60% approval. We should up it to a 70% or 75% minimum approval before accepting so that it is difficult to change the pricing of currency items.

There's no minimum approval rating necessary for a key suggestion to pass. Some people just blindly downvote any key suggestion, so its mainly left up to the proof and counter-proof to be the tools used by the moderators in rendering a final verdict. That said, votes are still taken into consideration when accepting or rejecting a suggestion, just not as stressed on currency suggestion due to a high level of bias from people totally against any increase in keys regardless of any amount of proof given.

I don't care what people are saying about there not being enough evidence, i know from personal experience that the economy that does not use backpack.tf as a bible, but more like a guideline, considers 7 ref a quick sell for keys, the price of keys should definitely go up and if a few links are gonna stop that your insane!

Can I just scream out something? Please?

Aren't we guys stupid? We are flaming the suggester, because he sets a new price for the keys. But actually, we should flame ourselves, because we are the one, who make the prices rising, we are the people, who sell the keys higher then usual. This guy is making his "job", to make the price right. He has no fault on this, but we do, The buyers and the sellers. And to be honest: Please, think for a second what we did, when we sold keys then higher and then rage at this guy. It is not right.

I am just saying. PLEASE DONT KILL ME!

I agree. Some of his posts here are getting downvoted harrrrrrrd. Dunno why

Will remain Neutral until more links are shown to strengthen your case

Where have we've seen this kind of inflation before? Gas/Oil? Oh Yeah!

Seriously, there is no way to stop the prices of keys/refined from going up/down. People will always sell keys for a certain amount of ref to get a profit, thus if someone really wants to buy a certain item, paying an extra scrap or two/reclaimed won't matter.

Come on guys, we see this kind of activity in the real world.

This is correct, but unlike gas or oil, keys will probably not hit a critical price (a price at which the price is so high people are unwilling to spend that much for a small thing and inflation stops). This is largely due to alternate accounts, idling, and how refined metal is infinite.

That being said, maybe refined will hit a critical price, the inflation is slowing after all- it's been a month since it's risen and I remember it used to rise .11 every week.

I should make a serious economic/psychologic study and write a paper on the forums on this issue, but for the most part I think that either keys will inflate ad nauseam and hit an absolutely ridiculous price before the community revolts (each price suggestion has gotten more and more backlash from the people), or the keys will stabilize soon and the world will be happy.

It's impossible to stabalize, think about it.

There will be a point though where there is less demand though. With less new or casual players having enough currency to buy, the market will be to small for them to make a quick, successful profit. At whatever gargantuan point that is the price will equal itself out ever so slightly.

I do not know about the amount of proof, you probably need more, but I could not agree more. Keys need a raise in price.

I appreciate your kind manner, so I will be as kind in response.

The sad truth is, markets change man. A simple average between back then and now would pretty much nullify the purpose of bp.tf's price updates.

Fair enough, bring me some sellers at a lower price or some successful buyers at a lower price and make a suggestion. Its that simple, mate.

not enough and quality proof isn't there

downvote

He has provided a lot more proof in the comments however due to the many unhelpful comments about how keys should stay the same without adding relaible proof of their claims it's easy for someone to miss.

the quality isn't through the suggestion

merely disagreeing

Just bought a key for 7 ref within a minute of listing my trade on Outpost ( http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18058368 )

Proof: http://imgur.com/oKrT6yO

7 ref isn't as 'difficult' to buy at as people seem to think.

This suggestion isn't about showing 7 refined is difficult. If I thought it was rare for keys to be traded at 7 refined, then I wouldn't have included in my suggested range, but its there in the suggested range because it is still a commonly traded price.

7 ref is a stable price... The proof no represent all the community...

and is easy buy/sell for 7 ref.

... Uncrate is bad now... Thanks.

He has shown plenty of buyers at 7.11 ref who are willing and have stock to buy many keys at said price. If it is relatively easy to buy at 7 refs please provide some proof so the mods can assess your claims

Bp.tf never did represent the community. We represent the market with valid proof.

I hate it when keys rise -_-

Whatever, upvote.

Its not like I pulled this suggestion out of thin air for no reason...

Alright, well I guess I won't jump to any conclusions this time and simply ask if you're being sarcastic or serious.

What else is the purpose of wasting your time given to on earth on it then? just being a good guy and suggesting prices to the community?

Too little proof. Needs much, much more

~~Downvote because keys are at a good price right now pls staup~~ Downvote. As MasterYster said you need 50-100 more links, thus not enough proof.

Apparently you didn't scroll down to see them provided.

As much as I hate to see them rise, upvote.

I've been hearing about this impending crash ever since the first suggestion raising keys was made. I still haven't seen it happen. It appears most just simply adjust rather than be angered about something that's already been occurring around them for weeks. No one wakes up one morning and thinks "hey, let's pay more for keys for no reason at all!" Its because its gotten to the point for them that its become too difficult to locate keys for a cheaper price, and simply decide to move on to a higher buying price. That's what all these links of 7.11 refined buyers scattered among this suggestion represent.

The key suggestion increasing keys from 2.66 refined to 2.66-2.77 refind: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/508f26e5ba2536a601000014

Some comments selected from it:

• "downvoted purely based in tf oupost inflated prices, in trade servers im able to easily find it for 2.66" - pew pew laser beams

• "I have seen people selling for 2.55 and usually pick keys up for 2.66 pretty easily. I do believe 2.66 should be the set price but do not agree the range. Prices should not be left to inflate due to GREED. People will always try and sell higher than the market price and some people may buy them and pander to the greed but this should not drive prices up. Increasing the price of keys will just lead to people inflating there prices until the value is unsustainable. THIS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED HAPPEN" - [MACC] L'Amore

• "The price of a key doesnt need to go up. 2.66 is the standard price now." - PhantomAssassin

• "Inflation here we come! Keys value ain't really increasing, it's buying power is getting weaker. This will effect all items." - ハッカー An7hrax.se

• "if u this gets pass then people will sell for 2.88, and another guy will just post another suggestion say 2.77~2.88 and the key price will keep rising gg" - SquishySoap

Tell me when the bomb goes off, mate.

Hehe, nice

First off, he is not feeding the greedy people. The people have raised the price; he is updating the price suggestion so that it is not inaccurate. The largest issue with the tf2 economy is that, while everything is free, the items that can be bought only with cash will always be priced highly. Think about it you're paying real money for an item that you are technically giving away to someone because they are using free stuff to pay for it.

The economy is a bubble of generated items and at some point it will burst. When keys reach an unpayable price too few people will be buying for it to be easy to make a profit. That is the only point at which the price of keys goes down is when the supply exceeds the demand.

the reason they suggest prices is... because... umm... ... ... they can?

maybe because they want to be known for doing something in the tf2 economy (negative or positive) and to be remembered for it?

If you were a smart trader, heck even if you were a dumb trader, it would not be hard to find a key buyer at 7.11. In fact, this is how easy it is.

I searched outpost for people paying refined metal for keys, and in the "notes to look for" I simply specified "7.11". This is not a hard thing to do, everyone has access to this simple function. These are the 7.11 buyers I found on the first page of the results alone:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18013622

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17223494

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18053564

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18023916

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18013471

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18041808

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17235572

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17925423

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18046376

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17997677

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18034957

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17844070

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15861456

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17839991

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17944280

Sorry if these links are repeats but it's simply to emphasise the point that it's incredibly easy to sell a key at 7.11. You are stupid if you sell for less with this amount of buyers considering how easy they are to find.

compelling proof, i upvote your comment

What he has shown is that there are many many buyers for 7.11 ref, in layman terms alot of people are able and willing to buy a lot of keys for 7.11 ref. If people are willing to pay more naturally the price would go up.

In regards to your latter statement, yes. If people made trades buying keys for 20 ref and there are numerous trades all willing to buy for that much then keys will be 20 ref. Why sell for less when you can easily sell for a lot more?

In which part and way has the FAQ offended you? I fail to see how it can offend anyone. It's a nice FAQ seeing if you scroll down many of the same questions/comments have appeared multiple times.

that moment when the first key suggestion after 2 months is just one scroll.

Wow.

well you are missing all links in the comments then and you did miss all the suggestion that were closed since the last accepted one. :P

I didn't know the comments were supposed to be the ones to provide the evidence instead of the suggester :P

He means I posted two more chunks of links in the comments. Shouldn't be too hard to miss since the comments will have a bolded blue border filled with a lot of blue links.

correct.

Damn I wish it was still a stable 7 ref... But it is true, I've had several key sales at 7.22 ref, and buy at 7.11 ref. Upvote

You read "stable" in the wrong context silly, I meant I wished the key prices had stayed at 7 ref. But unfortunately keys prices rise like crazy and so I have to adjust my prices.

I'm not sure if most down votes are people not wanting the price to go up or just complaining about the lack of proof.

I agree for the sentiment of the suggestion and the fact that it is the correct price that most keys sell for. But keys will only rise if backpack.tf price rises there will always be the gap between what the price is and what people on outpost sell/buy for.

Staying neutral

so true, all they are doing is adding a scrap tho the trades and the leap to the next price change is not far away

Please, look at yourself instead of others.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17931185

You are one of those guys with the "extra scrap profit".

"price on keys were pretty stable around 7.22-7.33"

so you're saying backpack.tf should intentionally remain inaccurate even though you personally believe keys are getting traded for 2-3 scrap more than the current suggested price? You're admitting that you know the price is wrong, yet you want to manipulate it to remain lower than it should be. If the price was actually stable at backpack.tf price, then there would be no need for it to have risen 2-3 scraps more than it currently is according to your statement.

But...but...i like how the keys a priced currently. :c

If you think its corrupt, then don't use it. Nothing says you have to, and if you really think making a suggestion for an item that multiple people have already been paying more for before the suggestion happens is corruption, then I suggest you consult a dictionary.

And how do you explain i can sell some stranges succesfully for a ref above bp.tf price?

If they were really fixed on bp.tf price, they would never buy it.

People don't need to use bp.tf even if a community says it, most of the time they just want to.

Almost none of my buying or selling trades are at bp.tf price. People pay what they must if they can't find an easier/cheaper way to get it

Leave soap operas to the forums where they belong, the comment section is to comment on the proof and/or provide counter proof.

No one cares about your opinion. We price things from proof not what people "think"

Bot sales count right? If so, here are a couple by my bot for 7.22:

http://puu.sh/70Tgo.png

http://puu.sh/70Thl.png

I thought bots didn;t count as proof.

They don't they're considered invalid since they are there for convenience, also you didn't reply to him, you just made a new comment :P

people,just think for a moment.Do you know how long it would take to put over 500 or so links?A whole day.And baloo as better things to do.If you want more proof,check tf2outpost (broken for me) or bp.tf.7 ref is such a quicksell.I sold a key for 7 ref ref once in ONE MINUTE.Keys are in super high demand since people are cashing out and so on.Not to mention keys are a currency.You want more proof?Check the dam tf2outpost and bp.tf.

Yes, let's all go back to spreadsheet where the owner is marked on Steamrep for legitimate price manipulation: http://steamrep.com/profiles/76561198037908684

I'm sure he's the one we want to control every single price and not have a single say in it. Such simpler times when you weren't allowed to even voice an opinion on a price, and simply put faith in a single person to accurately change it. Also, he did raise the price of keys before backpack.tf existed because I used to use spreadsheet almost 2 years ago. They went up from 2.33 to 2.66 refined back when it was still the main pricing guide for the TF2 community.

Oh, but wait! It gets better! Do you even know the current price of keys on TF2 spreadsheet? Its 7-7.11 refined: http://tf2spreadsheet.traderempire.com/spreadsheet/simplified

Feel free to go use it, since its so much better.

Owns 19 down vote. Seriously though you need more proof.

There's two more big chunks of it if you scroll through the suggestion.

Its not being butthurt to tell you to look for the other two sections of proof on this suggestion.

Although I downvoted, I'm siding with Baloo on this one. All he did was point you in the direction of his proof. You have no reason to be so belligerent.

i have a feeling that people are buying keys at 7 ref so that they can get a scrap profit when the prices go up... if we dont make suggestions, they wont generate more "proof"

Other way around since a lot of this proof already existed before this suggestion. Your timeline is off. You find links before making a suggestion, these 7.11 refined buyers already existed and continue to exist. They didn't need a suggestion to do it, and they're the ones to trigger it.

Keys will continue to keep rising until we get a sink for metal. Currently, the only metal sink is via crafting or deletion. People don't craft metal into hats because it is cheaper to craft two hats together, and people don't delete metal because it is just like burning money. The only way there will be a key price crash is if VaLVe adds something into the game that will remove refined in exchange for items or services. Until then, it will just keep going up, and we need to accept that.

One of the things that bothers me is that keys are becoming less of a currency and more of a real item. You know things are bad when people are starting to merchant a "common currency" item.

I would upvote this, but I don't vote on key suggestions anymore.

The only thing that can happen constantly is that refined metal prices can keep dropping, because at the end of the day a key will never sell for more than $2.50

7 ref is still in range so I don't know why a lot of people here are saying "you can still buy keys for 7 very easy"?

A lot of buyers for 7.11 but I agree this suggestion could use some more proof.

http://puu.sh/716As.png got 2 more (cant find my original post so ill just post a new one)

i must say that 7 ref seems to be a good price, everyday i see some seller on bp.tf at this price, ive bought several at this price.

and that's 7 refined is both in current and suggested range.

And... as I'm looking at this suggestion there's 2 for sale @ 6.88 in the recent classifieds. Very easy to find at 7 ref. It's a no from me, sorry.

And how many adds did the guy got for selling his @6.88?

Selling for 6.88 is an instant sell, it's called quicksell and does not count as counterproof.

Next to that 7ref is still in range so "very easy to find at 7 ref" also does not count since you can very easily find BUYERS @7.11 as you can see in the proof...

Well, I'm not sure how many adds he has received. I noticed that since my time of posting this, it is still for sale. Perhaps he went offline, or perhaps nobody has added him yet. While I do comprehend what it is you're saying, I listed actual evidence of a fact whereas you made wild speculations, not to mention your general tone was rather rude. The way I see it, simply because there are buyers at a listed value of 7.11 does not directly mean there are no players selling for 7, or even less.

There are still many people selling for 7 ref yet alot of people are able and willig to buy for 7.11 ref which is why there is a range.

I respect that. I personally don't see the need for a price increase, but others do. It's all good.

Sry that I sounded rude. English isn't my native language :)

I think you can also found proof of actual sells @7.22, maybe as much as sells @6.88. 7 ref is still in range but since there are so much buyers @7.11 it appears to be very simple to sell a key for 7.11 so I think there's nothing wrong with this suggestion. Yet again we're talking about keys here so it's always dangerous :)

You can't stop rising keys, if they dont rise keys on the pricing guide then the pricing guide is inaccurate, people blame backpack.tf for "key inflation" Its not backpack.tf's fault, its partly the idler's fault, and partly the third party website selling keys for real world money, the stock of keys went down while the stock of ref went up, the keys started to rise, its not backpack.tf's fault, its logic's fault

Err, idling has been almost completely done away with since text-based idling was removed along with the ability to obtain drops from if you're not moving, as far as I can recall. Anyways, there's no need for name calling, someone holding a different opinion doesn't make them an idiot. Some people still believe keys are still more commonly traded for 7 refined, so be it. I'm simply making a suggestion showing why I believe 7.11 refined should be included in the range. They have the right to disagree :)

i dont understand why you cant post relevant info on these price requests w/o getting warned. it makes zero sense. the fact is outpost trades for keys aren't reliable because they're blatantly manipulating the price. it's like saying astrology is a science, it's just bad and inaccurate. People (especially admins, mods, and the dude who keeps warning me and everyone else) should catch onto this and weight price requests like this accordingly.

A lot of people on this suggestion have voiced their opinion without getting warned. The reason you've been warned twice is because you're denouncing Outpost as a corrupt, and irreparable source of proof. However, you seem to miss that nothing is forcing any of these people to openly buy keys for 7.11 refined, and are continuing to do it openly. I do not think it is because they're after profit since its not logically profitable to buy keys for 7.11 refined when the price is 7 refined unless its become difficult for them to buy for 7 refined, so they've finally come to the conclusion to simply open a trade buying for 7.11 refined or more in order to attract sellers to them instead of seeking them out. If you believe outpost is a bad source of keys, then simply say where proof should be gathered since you believe outpost should not be used.

fair enough.

Just stating that this comment doesn't help to determine if the suggestion is right or wrong in any way and could get warned for that too. Maybe Cleverpun will still do that. But since you are so persistent I will make a reply to it.

So you are saying that all those people buying/selling keys for refined, who are several hundred different steam accounts, are manipulating the price of keys? To get what exactly? And astrology is no science afaik.

If you have a feeling that we are not taking key suggestions seriously enough, please help us getting better. Just saying that ~95% of users from other trading sites use outpost too.

If you can't give me a short answer and want discuss this more in depth please use the forum thread: http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/6090-the-one-and-only-key-price-topic/

Edit: Well seems like I got ninjad partly.

I'm saying that the price of keys is being manipulated and artificially raised to a degree if you look at outpost trades alone. On outpost it is common for key trades with the market price to be snatched up quickly and then the person who does the trade will try and resell them for a few scrap or a reclaimed more looking for quick profit (almost no one sells keys at market price on outpost in the first place though). If people only use outpost to buy keys they will usually end up buying keys for above the market price unless they're quick and constantly refresh keys being traded for the occasional trader that sells at market price or below. I've been through this and have done a fair-share of key trading on outpost where i was successful at selling keys from anywhere from a scrap to a reclaimed more and this is what happens.

In order for a price to be raised there has to more than just outpost traders just cranking out quick trades with other outpost traders for profit. If you use outpost trades alone as evidence for key prices, you'll have a constantly increasing key price due to what I mentioned, but if you examine what goes on in trade servers, here, and other trade sites that aren't outpost I think the evidence would be a lot better and if keys are constantly moving at 7 ref everywhere else aside from outpost the price shouldn't be raised. Honestly, the prices listed on this site affect pricing everywhere far more than outpost so if the price on something like keys is raised to 7.11 ref people on every site will trade for that price even if it was raised prematurely. Using outpost alone for evidence is flawed.

edit: fixed typos.

You failed the short answer part, I will quote your post in the forums and won't reply here any longer.

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/6090-the-one-and-only-key-price-topic/?p=82176

But yes, a bunch of buyers from bazaar or tradepost will never hurt.

So if these prices affect other sites, then why would they be any different than Outpost? Plus if people are just trying to make profit, then they aren't intentionally manipulating the price. At the end of the day, if keys are selling frequently for a certain price, then that is what the price is. Just like in the real world the market will eventually reach an equilibrium where the number of buyers matches the number of sellers, then it will stop rising.

I've been waiting for that equilibrium for a year and the only time that seemed to happen is when admins here stopped accepting easy proof key suggestions and it stayed at 7 ref for a month. If the price keeps raising here (adequate proof or less than adequate proof) an equilibrium will never be reached, unless something ridiculous happens like the in-game currency value in ref dollar value equalling the price in the mannco store).

Outpost is diff because people are just trading keys back and forth over and over again to maximize profit (some guy who rapidly refreshes the key trades all day buys one at market price or a little above and prices it higher, another dude buys it for that higher price and tries selling it for an even higher price, cycle repeats indefinitely), while others are using keys to trade for unusuals, earbuds, other items, or even open crates. It has a different sort of market than in-game or any other trading site (at least to the degree this is done which is why you will see almost NO keys for sale on OP at market price).

Backpack is far more influential when it comes to prices set on items than outpost or any other site because it is basically the pricing bible and once prices are updated here they affect every other site and in-game trading and outpost will use it to attempt to increase key prices more ("backpack.tf just updated the price to 7.11 i'm going to sell it for 7.33 because all of the 7.11 ref ones are being bought up on OP and rapidly resold for higher"). This is why key suggestions should be taken more seriously and if outpost key trading is going to be taken as seriously as it is now in key price suggestions it's hard to expect much more that nonsensical prices (like how at some points keys on the steam market are all listed at a cent higher than the actual mannco store). Outpost is unfortunately THE site to use when it comes to evidence of any trade though (and it is reliable most of the time), keys are just diff though.

So what makes you say that people won't buy 7 ref keys on bazaar.tf and sell them for 7.11? What makes Outpost different? It only SEEMS like it is the culprit of these buy low-sell high trades because of the massive amount of traffic compared to other trading sites, when in reality I'm sure the numbers of these trades on other sites are in proportion based their traffic compared with Outpost.

And the reason the equilibrium hasn't hit is because there is still demand. As long as there is more demand than sellers, key prices will go up.

Whining isn't "relevant info"--if you would like to discuss a ban or warning, then add the mod who administered it, instead of clogging up the comment section further.

there's more to my posts than "whining", see above.

Just a small amount of more, previously not on this suggestion, proof:

Buyers:

7.22 refined:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18074769 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18081602 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18078389

7.11 refined:

Less than 1 week old:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18071548 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18057084 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18081016

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18076896 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18068520 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18059498

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18081715 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18057935 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18057312

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18067644 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17824782 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18077480

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18072927 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18079052 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18073195

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18077450 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/18062595

More than 1 week old:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17842266 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/15516798 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17392107

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17850861 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17831219 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/13330366

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17768617

Previously listed buying for 7 refined on this suggestion and now buying for 7.11 refined:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17997677

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/17199581

There are two other large sections of proof buried in the comment section.

I buy keys for 7 refined all the time. I got two adds in 10 seconds for it. I would have to say 7.11 is a bit too much.

P.S. 19 scrap isn't really bumping his value that much, so don't solely downvote because of that. Never downvote when someone has the stuff they're trying to increase in price.

he isnt removing 7 ref from the range. he is merely suggesting that 7.11 is also commonly traded

I just looked at my bookmarks and saw that the FDH Bots inventory changed their buying price to 7.11

http://www.festivaldelhumor.org/

They have the capacity to buy over 750+

Their individual Outpost trades

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/11851316 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/12729897 | http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/12169061

Why is he actually in your eyes a nerd? The keys are one of the main currencies in the tf2 trading system. When there is a pricechange (even when the price changes to 1 scrap up or down), these suggestions need to have alot of proof since there are like 20,000 Trades for the keys.

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/botstf

Has 3 bots paying 7.11 ref for keys also

~~Obvious price manipulation Downvote.~~

Lol enjoying the notification spawn?

With extra proof, i will now vote up, or Upvote.

That's not enough evidence - plus the sellers are selling those keys ever-so-slightly overpriced so they gain PROFIT

Well those trades are buyer trades, not sellers.

Cleary another case of not reading + clicking a single link I guess. :P

Look at my bear , my bear its amazing

Great proof baloo , probably most of the people that post , "oh , there are less than 150 links , if there isnt a massive shit-ton of links then all the complete suggestion its invalid" please , obviously keys need another currency as even quickbuyers are willing to pay more than the currency for one and 7 seems genuine like a quicksell.

You got my upvote from me , with experience i can affirm than 7 refs - key sellers sell their keys almost instantly.

Good luck with this.

key price suggestions should have way more links of proof compared to normal items, keys are always selling and mostly people go slightly higher than recommended prices, i would like to upvote but there definetly needs to be more proof and sellers as well so we can get both sides of the coin

There are 300-400 links of proof here. Just look at the normal comments as well.

"Why raise the price? People will always buy keys and sell 1-2 scrap more for a profit, which is basically the concept of key inflation. There will always be proof of it selling for more then its worth. Also, for the people who buy at 7.11 ref, do you think the sellers would pay 7.11 for keys and sell them back at the same? Of course not, they buy them at 7 or less, which should be pointed out. For every 7.11 ref sale, there will be 7 ref or less sales that happened before it." ~hhaffar

Why was this warned Cleverpun?

I would think this would be included in the Community opinion which as you said was 'extremely important"

"Community opinion on these matters is extremely important" <-- your own words

Just sayin' :I

Agreed, this point should be taken very seriously.

I warned it because they were implying that raising the price is bad and inaccurate. There are many comments along the same lines here, and they all have the same anti-change bias.

Obviously adjusting our price is going to affect the market somewhat, but saying that we should not change the price--and thus present inaccurate information--in order to avoid that is just replacing one problem with another, and it is a very short-sighted, flawed idea.

PancakeDragon, Xando, Ms. Adorable (Icy is sexy poni), Angel-Mander, kléni, Rayder #MVM, and several others all made comments based around a similar notion, and they were all warned as well, for the same reasons.

There was no implication in that comment. The man was explaining cyclical trending and how bp.tf contributes to that trend.

I am glad to see you are starting to realise that yourself. I warned you about this when I was an SR community admin, back when keys were... 4 refined? and you outright dismissed bp.tf had any influence on prices whatsoever. A little late but it is a start that you can finally admit bp.tf affects the market, even if you believe it is only "somewhat".

Your inferred solution you think they are suggesting of "not changing the price" is, truely, a stupid idea and I believe the majority here along with myself would agree with you on the point that it is short sighted and flawed.

Does bp.tf need to report the price of keys at all? No. One could go onto outpost or bazaar, whatever.. and look for themselves easily enough. It would stop bp.tf's influence on this trend, however I don't think your ready to admit the extent of this influence just yet.

Perphaps, in time, at 8, 9 or 10 refined you will re-evaluate your own bias towards warning anyone who tries to explain this trending to you, and realise community suggesting of key prices was a shambolic idea right from the start.

Where the line between off-topic and on-topic lies is something that the mods regularly do evaluate and discuss. The fact that at least 7 people expressed the same idea on this suggestion alone, however, indicated that this particular comment wasn't terribly helpful or important. Anyone who wants to discuss a ban or warning is and always has been welcome to add me--suggestions are not the place for such things.

The same goes for your (repetitive) discussion of bp.tf reporting key prices at all; please take it to the forums or PMs, you are only clogging up an already bloated suggestion.

Repetitive? Twice in 12 months.. gg cleverpun

The best thing for bp.tf to do is to establish a range of at least 2 scrap to allow for fluctuations in the market.

if the price suggestion gets accpeted, he only makes ~3 scrap profit, lol

I'm not gaining any profit if this suggestion gets accepted. I've already shown there's plenty of buyers at 7.11 refined and even a few at 7.22 refined, so this suggestion being accepted or closed doesn't affect my supposed "profit" because if I truly wanted to sell my keys for more than backpack.tf price, then already could.

Owning 19 keys is like owning 19 dollars, it really isn't much to own of an item when it comes to currency. It barely enough to buy a bud and almost anyone who trades regularly has at least a few keys if not more if they've been trading for a while. There are backpacks with hundreds and hundreds of keys (i.e. [url]http://backpack.tf/id/76561198028941884[/url])

Anyways, no, bots are not considered proof since they're there for convenience. I simply listed them, and separately, to show that they existed. I've also added 3 more sections of buyers links since this suggestion has been created. Please scroll through the suggestion if you would like to locate them. They have a lot of blue links which should separate them from all the other comments on this suggestion.

am not an expert here, but dont you need a lot and i mean A LOT of proof from the buters/sellers keys?

I've added 3 more sections of links of buyers since this suggestion has been created. Please scroll through the suggestion if you would like to locate them. They have a lot of blue links which should separate them from all the other comments on this suggestion.

this is getting difficult because of the 350 or so comments and replies on this suggestion

and since comments are automatically hidden if they have more than 5 dislikes, and people mostly dont like key prices going up, so i am pretty sure that they cant see all your additions without searching

I know, that's why I'm telling him that they exist, so that he knows that they are there.

This suggestion concerns only refined to key conversion rate in TF2 keys have consistently been selling for $2.35-$2.45 (fluctuating daily and weekly based on when the majority of the TF2 community is online, keys are usually cheaper during the middle of the weekday): http://steamcommunity.com/market/listings/440/Mann%20Co.%20Supply%20Crate%20Key

Assuming this suggestion would effect key selling rate on the steam market, then it'd be adding roughly a penny since refined currently costs $0.27 and this would move the average key price to 7.05 refined (1 weapon or half a scrap), so 0.27/18(amount of weapons in a refined) equals .015

Also keys won't sell for over $2.49 on the steam market because at that point any intelligent person would realize they could buy one from the Mann Co. Store for $2.49

Name tags consistently sell for over $1 in market place. People are not intelligent as a whole.

However steam money is worth less than paypal as you're restricted in only buying stuff from steam.

Yes, but as if you wouldn't buy it from the store at 99c. It's just silly.

I know of players which abuse the currency exchange which is probably why some have sold for more?

# Mr/Miss Cleverpun, I shall rephrase the sentence according to community guidelines.

Brad, the admin of this website, in his last moderation to one of the suggestions by ex-moderator, stated, firmly, that he cannot accept a suggestion that reflects a negligible price change, in this case it is $ 2.49 / 7 / 9 = $ 0.039522809.

More importantly, as we have seen in the past, the little green up arrow has fuelled many hype trains, and is bound to do the same this time too. Is it worth it?

There always have been sales +/- under any suggested price on this website. An year ago, when the price of keys were 2.55 ref, many users bought and sold for 2.66 ref but it took ages for that price to rev up to 2.66 ref and when that happened it sort of stabilized at 7 ref. Now this suggestion of 0.11 scrap can churn up things pretty bad again.

I have about 410 ish keys, a scrap increase in price now and then the follow up hype will only work in my favour. Decision is yours !!!!

Please take this to the forums. I already warned 7 other comments that proposed the exact same thing.

I would have loved to take this to the forums, but a suggestion for keys, withheld for 3 days, lengthy discussions page, is perfect for such discussions.

And, I am sorry, inaccurate information you say? All the suggestions downbelow had similar range and similar proof content. That is what botched up is !!!

1. http://backpack.tf/vote/id/52d893fe4dd7b8936e8b456b

2. http://backpack.tf/vote/id/52cf95384dd7b8424b8b4569

3. http://backpack.tf/vote/id/52cb20674cd7b84a7d8b4568

And the idea behind it is that why change a price when it is just 1 scrap? +/-0.11 ever 63 scrap, is it worth reflecting? or change of $0.04 ever $ 2.49? How is that misinformation? That is called being pedantic."

How does my this comment breaks any community guidelines? This is a genuine reply with links to past suggestions showing 100+ links each at sales from 7-7.33ref.

I told you to take it to the forums and you did not--just because there are 300+ comments on this suggestion doesn't mean it needs more off-topic discussion. This is your last verbal warning before a ban.

300+comments = prime exposure.

forums = less then 10 member comments

But as you say, I will take it to forums.

[YOU WON'T GET THIS, IF YOU ACTUALLY WE'RE IN THE DAYS WHEN KEYS WERE 2 - 2.33 REF]

Try to bare with me, im typing this at midnight,

lol @ ppl who keep saying "remember when it was 2 ref, guise" With 2 ref you can get almost any misc that you can think of. As well as have a good loadout for one class... With 2 ref from NOW..tell me what you can get for your favorite class?

I know this is a little irrelevant but....

Here are some items that I got for 2 ref OR LESS.

http://backpack.tf/stats/Strange/Black%20Box/Tradable/Craftable

http://backpack.tf/stats/Strange/Your%20Eternal%20Reward/Tradable/Craftable

http://backpack.tf/stats/Strange/Dead%20Ringer/Tradable/Craftable

The items mentioned costs around 1.33 ref - 2.33 ref when keys were 2 - 2.33 ref. Now those items cost around 7+/- ref. HOW?

What happened? Metal significantly changed , the increase of supply, it's value decreased therefore more metal is needed to meet the demand.

Keys still cost $1.80 or less, "outside" the market since..forever?

TL:DR

The price of keys never changed. Only metal that lost it's value.

No, keys have not been sold via PayPal for $1.80 or less forever. During this year's Halloween event a multitude of keys were sold in the range of $1.90-$2.00, not to mention that $1.80 is huge leap from what keys used to sell for via PayPal which was around $1.30-$1.40, and if you don't believe me, then I gathered some old trades:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/3899152 $1.30 from November 7, 2012

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/6480820 $1.35 from December 17, 2012

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/7717606 $1.40 from March 14, 2013

The reason you were able to buy those old stranges for around 2 refined or less is because you were around back when the crate that contained them was still active. That means a greater number were available on the market, and so the price was low, but overtime, just with every strange, the price started increasing as less were available for purchase, and so buyers begin buying from those selling at slightly higher prices. When the Strange Rocket Launcher was re-released in crate #44 it was only worth about 1 refined or less and stayed that way for almost 6 months as demonstrated by the backpack.tf graph between August of 2012 and February of 2013: http://backpack.tf/stats/Strange/Rocket%20Launcher/Tradable/Craftable

Key and metal values may have played a role in the increase of the black box, yer, and dead ringer, but that was not the main cause of their increase in value. It was people's desire to buy them, and willing to pay a higher price as the amount available at the current price decreased due to less being unboxed and entering the market.

Thank for the response, I was unable to gather if keys were actually sold to about less than that, I usually buy keys in sourceop, but it seems to be down. And I can't find a way how to search for closed TF2Outpost trades

I probably wasn't think about the whole market, I used my personal experience instead, of how much I brought my items then coming back a year later. If I could have been active since.

Another reason that I thought the items went from 2 ref to 1 keys is this:

2 REF: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/4ff924979ae21a1b5f000000 | http://backpack.tf/vote/id/4fdc1cf69ae21a7e2d000000

1 KEY: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/503152ce9ae21af573000001 | http://backpack.tf/vote/id/4ff279d09ae21a3179000000

With your response, I was able to learn more in how key and metal value plays a role in this economy. Thank you, Baloo.

You still have my upvote.

I remember keys being around $1.25 via PayPal when I first started, but I couldn't find any links to support it. The way I found those old trades was searching for current sellers and seeing if I could find a previous key selling trades dating back long enough. I probably went through 20 sellers to find those three. Anyways, glad I could help to the best of my knowledge :)

yeah mate no one sells less than 7,11 so yeah vote it up

No, we wouldn't.

Steam Store key price is 2,5$

1 ref costs 0,28$.

So the top price for the key is 9 ref.

Refined was recently dropped in price and will continue to do so due to its non-stop injection into the economy. There is no "top price" because the value of refined will continue to depreciate as the key appreciates.

Well, sorry for my English, it's not my native, but.

What injection are you talking about? Ref. (like a key by the way) is a consumable resource. Prices on refined depend only on levels of supply and demand. Sooner or later, if the price continues to fall, there will be a moment when selling refs become unprofitable. And that's when sellers stop selling it and the price goes up.

But anyway I was not talking about future perspective. I was talking about dependency from the ref price and steam store key price. So there IS a top price for the key. And of course it will change in time. But not like "OMG if we change the price to the key it will be OVER 9000 soon, downvote immediately"

Selling refined will never be unprofitable, considering that you get it for free from random drops every week. It may not be worth handling multiple idle accounts if you only make say, 1 cent of profit from each refined, but that's still profit. As long as ref is continuously injected into the economy in the current scenario, the supply will always be greater than the demand. Therefore the price of ref will drop and the key will in turn rise, since ref isn't worth as much.

The only way to make refined worth more is to give it a purpose which makes it worth keeping around. The Collector's sets that came out recently is Valve's attempt at ref management, but fails spectacularly considering very few people have or want Collector's kits/items. I personally suggest creating a game mode or something similar that requires refined to play (not some sort of pay-to-win thing, but maybe ref would be required to create certain one-off weapons for use in the mode).

You can buy keys cheaper from people if you're buying them directly trough paypal

Of course you can. And also you can find a cheaper price for the ref. I was talking about maximum prices.

s'not how value works in the tf2 economy :u (see the value of mann up tickets, cost to buy them in real money)

MvM tickets

Steam Store - 0.99$

Backpack.tf - 3.33 ref = 0,93$

And don't forget about the sale that was not long ago. I personally sold about 20 tickets for 0.9$ and that proofs nothing.

seems to me you've removed more proof than you've added. just an observation in relation to the rules of proof and backpack tf.

How on earth did I remove proof? Please expound on that, and how it relates to the rules for proof.

http://bazaar.tf/trade/696415

http://bazaar.tf/trade/696413

Just instabought 2 keys @ 7 :^)

11 minutes, but yes, in the range of instabought since not enough time had passed for a first bump. Also this is in a bit of a gray area of being a bot sale since you had them listed as 'buy now' trades on bazaar.tf. Not to mention I am not removing 7 refined from the range, so its still expected for keys to sell for that amount.

Vote: -

If the current flat price sells quick and takes the majority of the market, it shouldn't be lowered even if the high end isn't being removed. Same case here. 7 ref buys so quickly that the price is stable and can stay. Obviously, sales happen all over the place, but that's what happens when there is a price for keys. Everyone knows that bp.tf will influence the market somewhat, but, as stated previously, bp.tf will never have a key price that everyone buys for and everyone sells for. It just won't happen. In addition, suggestions based on buyers alone are viable as you have quite a few, but I really just don't see why you want to ignore the sellers. If you want the buyers to take precedence over the sellers, that's one thing and it's fine. But if you want to do this and especially with a currency suggestion, I can't really see this having enough support to justify the raising of the key price. No matter how quick it sells, 7 is always the most commonly traded price point and having a different range would suggest otherwise.

TL;DR Buyers aren't enough proof to stand alone, more proof needed, 7 ref still looks ok.

Your opening sentence is a bit oddly worded, but I figured that you were saying that the current price should not be made the low-end if it still is the majority of the market, but that's if its the majority of the market. If you could provide some counter-proof showing 7 refined as a more commonly traded price over a range of 7-7.11 refined, then feel free to provide, but your argument seems to be based on the supposed given that keys sell more frequently for 7 refined which I do not see justified in your comment. The reason I am using buyers, as I've already stated, is because sellers do prove a shift in the market as strongly as buyers do. There will always be desperate people who may be willing to pay a scrap or two more for a key because that's how much the time to search for a cheaper key is worth to them, however, when multiple buyers appear buying for more, then it becomes more apparent that an increase may be in order. This is because they can no longer simply locate a seller at a higher price, and have simply resorted to paying more in order to attract the sellers to them instead demonstrating a stronger shift in the market towards a higher average selling price.

Anyways, TL;DR prove 7 refined is more commonly traded with actual proof, and I will believe your argument.

I really, REALLY. Hate this. But the fact is that keys are not just 7 ref anymore. The price suggestion needs to reflect that. No matter how many kicking screaming whining tantrums are thrown. Upvoted. :/

Disliking comments that support this suggestion won't help, nor will liking ones that go against this suggestion.

Yeah I don't understand why 4 people chose to dislike my comment. It's not rational. They're just really mad about the increasingly lopsided key to metal ratio and they don't care about the facts. That's key complainers in a nutshell.

Well, I don't like it either, but you don't see me acting like a huge baby about it. I feel sorry for the backpack.tf admins because they have to put up with this crap.

People buy and sell keys so quickly because they are a form of currency. Wouldn't you pay a scrap or two more if you quickly wanted to clean up your inventory? The "rising prices" of keys is not because they are worth more, but because people are willing to spend more to get them quickly. Think of it as "quick-buying".

TL:DR? Key bots buy for 7.11 and sell for 7.22 to take advantage of "quick-buyers" who want to clean their inventory ASAP. The price of keys is NOT actually rising.

The point is that people are willing to buy for more which is what dictates the price to rise. If you can easily sell at 7.11 ref why should bp.tf keep the inaccurate price of 7?

Also keys are not rising at all, it is always 2.5$ from the store and has never changed. It is in fact refine is dropping, you play you get metal (free) more players = more metal, and most of the metal is barely used as not many people craft not to mention idling (not so much of an issue now) where you had people with 200 accounts hoarding metal.

The whole point of my comment went completely over your head. The price of an item should not be dictated by quick-buyers, because there will ALWAYS be quick-buyers no matter what the price of the item is, who will pay one or two scrap more.

Seems like you dont care about actual prices either, there are quite a few buyers for 7.11 refs not to mention you ignored the extended list of buyers for 7.11 bith in the comment section as well as main proof.

Please at least have some sort of idea of what you are talking about instead of ignoring what is given and living in your fantasy world.

dont spam the already large at 400 comments with a dumb joke

I got tired when selling for 7 ref and 5 people added in less than a minute. Upvote

A while ago in a trade server, I just bought 2 keys at 7 refined each.

http://puu.sh/74ppI.png

7 refined is in the range

Good for you? 7 ref is still in range if you were trying to counterprove something. He's just showing that 7.11 is viable now.

How is it ignorant? TF2 is a market with in-built inflationary pressure. Keys are *always* going to rise vs metal because the supply of metal increases at a linear rate.

warns are given to off topic comments. comments are meant to have proof/counterproof. warned comments are comments with spam or random comments like "OH NO THERE GOES THE ECONOMY" or "keys will hit 999999 ref by next year"

Accept this already, no one likes this but trying go against it is foolish.

Is this really needed? I see keys sold for 7 ref on servers and I can provide proof 7-7.11? despite to have a up voted price?

Yes, and they're at a steady rate currently, they're going up because demand is going up. Once everyone who whines about key prices finally stops buying for what they're selling for, then they'll start going down. And these prices aren't getting out of hand. TF2 constantly drags in more players than it loses per day. Why is this relevant you may ask? Because more players = more free metal produced, which means it's easier to purchase items. The only reason keys are affected by this is because there will always be a demand for them since they're so versatile. Metal has little usage, and thus is why it's considered to be a currency. This suggestion is meant to show a current price and not a manipulation to get keys going again. Once people refuse to buy at higher and current prices, then come back and complain that the price isn't fair.

Neutral for now unless you can provide heaps more proof. <100 buyers does not an acceptable sample make.

In my opinion, 300+ should be required for a key suggestion. It's not really proof you should be able to gather in a single day, it should take at least several days of monitoring sales and purchases to collect a reasonable sample size of evidence.

look back through the comments for his other proof he has added

I think in order to make a key suggestion we should put in the fact of how refine metal is doing, and how much keys sell for in real currency. So if refine metal goes DOWN in real currency, the logical step would be that key prices go UP in refine/metal. So prove those prices and then you'll have a logical step on to this, I don't think this should be left to the community alone on this one.

Needs more proof for such a popular/high demand item. I've seen weapons with more proof xD

Downvote.

Closing this suggestion and opening a new one. Reasoning will be explained on the new one. If you voted on this suggestion, then your voting accuracy will not be effected, since only suggestions closed or accepted by moderators may effect your voting accuracy and count toward your overall voting score.