Suggestion: Hellfire Antlers at 511.5–651 keys

Sale 2: http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/22035792 Sold for a RA Bubble Pipe (18.5 times .9=16.65, rounding to 16.5 so people stop bothering me about ugly ranges.)

so sales were 13(quicksell),14.2,16.6, would average to 14.6, rounding to 15.

17+12.3+15+0.7=45*0.9=40.5 buds

Sale 4

Dupped Anti-Freeze Gibus+ Pro Ks Aussie Scatter + big kill + pro sticky kit

as almost all items are not priced we would have to leave this one out, and after using the antler suggestion to price the gibus.

Sale 5

http://i.imgur.com/Kn9SvxU.png?1

My backpack history at 2014-08-26

Sold for a Burning Luchadore + Burning Master's belt (both clean) + 5 buds in professional australiums (pro aus wrench + pro aus medi gun) a few days after it turned misc.

37~ buds.*0.9=33.3 buds

Sale 1- 33.5 buds (round to 34, if needed) (4th most recent)

Sale 2-42 buds (3rd most recent)

Sale 3-40.5 buds (2nd recent)

Sale 4- Unable to use(most recent)

Sale 5- 37*0.9=33.3 (5th most recent)

Overall

2 Sales at 33~

2 sales at 40~42

Range is 33~42 (most accurate one we can come up with. at the moment)

The mid range is around 37.5~, which seems to be accurate for now.

thx for reading.

Use offers to decide which of your two ends are outliers. That range is huge.

but i've seen suggestions being accepted with larger ranges (worth around the same as this) :/

Hmm. 33 as a sale is by far the oldest here, almost two months older than the other sales.

If we theoretically discount that, then 34 would be an outlier.

And, although you're not Using the Gibus sale, the gibus got offered Ghost Antlers (42.5) ( http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/23294516 ) so that sale would support the high-end being the correct price too.

that's true, maybe range of 40-43 would be best?

I have already suggested that, however i decided it was not accurate as i would be taking out 2 sales, which is half of the recorded sales. Therefore i decided to put 33-42, which may look like an awkward rang, but will fit for now.

fair enough

You're not taking out half the recorded sales, you're taking out one fifth >_<

As I explained, the only one you'd be not using is the TC one, which is reasonably an outlier.

if we dont count the gibus sale, it leaves us with 4 sales

2 at 33

2 at 40-42.

But we are counting the gibus sale because it is, at least, reasonable proof of a 40+ value.

And, for the sake of argument, we're not counting the Belt + Luchadore sale because it's much older than the others.

So it's three at 40-42 and one at 33.

the gibus is dupped and it defitnetly isnt valued at 40.

the ra clean ones, are only 35.

u would need some proof to see if its 40. for now its best to leave it out, as everthing in the offer is nearly unpriced.

imo i think the sales with the gibus+stuff will end up around 40, but after overpay will come to around 36~ which will fit nicely into the range.

Uh, I showed you proof. He got offered 43 in unusuals.

You know that an AF Gibus is no near 40. I mean look at the RA one, its only valued at 35. And after OVERPAY it will definitely fall into the range of 30's. And with the stuff he added (around 3-5 buds), will be around 36~, which is spot on the middle of the high end and low end. perfect.

one offer does not determine the price, i am sure your well aware.

I feel that your opinions are bias, as you constantly believe that the af gibus + 3-4 buds in stuff will be 40~ buds, after unuusal overpay. Imo i dont think so, read above to see. There is no proof of the gibus being 40, and even so it is a DUPPED one, which would not be as valuable as a clean one.

AF > RA, firstly.

Secondly, okay. I've got proof of a 42.5 bud offer. You find me some counter-proof.

First, thats an opinion af> ra. There is no rule which says that, and even so if we look in the Ke and Tc, its the other way round, RA> AF.

And Counter Proofing a 42.5 bud offer, is useless because its just an offer not a sale.

It's proof of a value. If you refuse to find counter-proof you forfeit your position.

You do not have the choice of whether i decide to "forfeit my position" , as firstly you are basing a whole suggestion on a single strand of proof, and even that is just an offer. Why are you so persistent on making the af gibus valued at 40? 1 offer, not even a sale, will prove nothing of its true value. Secondly, you are being bias towards the gibus. The latest sale was Duped AF Gibus+ stuff for a Hellfire Antlers. You say,to call this sale 42 buds, just because there is an offer of 42 on the gibus(u havent even told me what it was, it could be retracted/outdated etc), and even after overpay that would be around 37-38 buds.

Yes. Which shows 33 is an outlier.

Because there's three lots of proof at 38+ and one at 33 (discounting the belt + lucha sale for the reasons stated.)

I don't understand what's so difficult to grasp here.

And there was no need for an entire wall of rage. Still waiting on that counter-proof, too.

You realise that there is0 proof of 38.. (unless the

2 solid sales of 33 and 2 solid sales at 40-42. You are forgetting the overpay on sale 5, ur thinking its 38, when in fact after overpay its 33.I would much rather prefer a bp.tf admin to decide, as they will have a non-bias point of view.

In fact i want to ask you this. Give me solid evidence that a dupped af gibus, is 40 buds. And no... saying that "oh it was offered 42 buds, it must be 42 buds" that doesnt count. I mean proper recent sales, recent valid offers etc.

"Still waiting on that counter-proof, too."

How can i give counter proof when u gave me no proof?

Got more proof than you have. Go for it.

I'm not forgetting anything on sale 5. I'm saying it's old. Where the heck did you get I think it's 38 from?

"Because there's three lots of proof at 38+"

Read your own comments.

"Got more proof than you have."

If you do, why dont u show me instead of criticizing this suggestion.

I meant of the value of the AF gibus and nothing else with that statement.

And I stand by that statement.

Well if you stand by your statement, you show me some proof.

Let's dance.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/22926319 Offered on Duped Secret TC (mini in duped hat thread, taking 55)

No overpay, = 55

Histories:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/item/440,3112196213,30003,5

http://www.tf2outpost.com/item/440,3034944667,378,5

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/20366186 Sold + C9 Titanium Tower (2.3) for Arcana Anger + Spellbound Anger ( Using notes from here http://backpack.tf/vote/id/53d61d914dd7b8a3448b4568 To price both angers together at 33-35.) + ScorchyBat Jefe (Outdated at 14.3, 'mini' at 14.3)

(48.3 * 0.9) - 2.3 = 41.17 (rounding to 41)

Histories:

http://www.tf2outpost.com/item/440,3112196213,30003,5

http://www.tf2outpost.com/item/440,1983183829,30008,5

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/20954541

http://www.tf2outpost.com/item/440,2728938976,539,5

Jefe mini:

No recent sales at all. Owner from the gibus sale still owns it.

Using 14.3.

41-55 gives a midpoint of 48. However, there's a B/O on the Market of 45, so I'm using 41-45.

So I can price the AF Gibus at 43 buds.

Your turn.

First, Dupped Secret Tcs are not 55, they are much lower, i doubt they could get more than 45 buds pure. And the current price of 54.5 buds should be for clean tc's ONLY, and it is OUTDATED.

Anyway... how does someone offering a hat on another hat with higher value, have anything to do with the value of the hat?

Its like saying I offered my hat on a Burning Ke, my hat is now 300 buds.

Your 2nd sale.

Your assuming that the price of the spellbound anger,

and the arcana anger should be

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/53ea858e4cd7b8f63b8b473d

15-20 buds=17.5

why would you use the old suggestion for the Arcana Anger (20 buds) and not the new one 15-20 buds?

The spellbound anger should be priced at an estimate of 10-14 buds, after looking at the price i doubt it will be more then sunbeams which is currently valued at 14.

17.5+14 (at very most)= 31.5 buds + 14.3 (note that this is outdated price, would probably be lower)= 45.8*0.9= 41.22

41.22-2.3=38.92 (round to 39 buds).

*39 buds is assuming that

-the spellbound anger can actually get 14, (same as sunbeams, which i highly doubt. imo it would probs be 10 max)

- the Chiroptera Venenata Jefe price is still valid 14.3

imo 39 buds would be the high end of the AF Gibus.

Even so if we look at the Roboactive Gibus, the CLEAN ones are valued at 34.3 buds. What I am saying is the price you think the gibus is, is not accurate. We should wait for further sales and not base it on one sale or a sale/offer? which has a dupped secret tc.

You didn't read a bloody word of what I said, did you?

The TC price comes from the duped hat thread. NOT the actual bp.tf price. And I counted it as an outlier ANYWAY because CLEARLY it's too high.

It was OFFERED on the TC, then SOLD for it. I merely state offered to not apply overpay. That should be blindingly obvious.

I AM using 15-20 for the Arcana anger. I linked the failed suggestion at 20 because it contained the addtional proof on the spellbound anger. Hence I'm pricing -both- at 33-35 (or ~16.5-17.5 each)

ALL of your pricing efforts so far against my gibus suggestions are based on comparisons to other prices. I can think of several instances http://backpack.tf/unusuals/Larrikin%20Robin http://backpack.tf/unusuals/Professional%27s%20Panama http://backpack.tf/unusuals/L%27Inspecteur Where Arcana outranks Sunbeams. It is a moot point what OTHER effects are worth on hats, we're not talking about OTHER effects.

I've proven a price. Now you go find some sales that prove it isn't worth that.

You are very bias towards for the gibus, instead of asking me to read your "bloody words", why dont you...

You have not acknowledged anything i have wrote, because if you did, you would undertsand my point of view.

There is no way of persuading you, or even telling you my point of view. Luckily you aren't an admin.

Using specified examples of low tier hats, will not prove anything at all. I dont care if in a single hat arcana is better than sunbeams. A beginner would know that in general sunbeams > arcana.

Back to the point.

I will not argue with someone who is trying to contradict evidence for the sake of it. It is "blindingly obvious" as you quote, that you trying to defend the hat no matter what means. Even if it means to hugely twist pieces of evidence, in your favor, even when it is not. This is my opinion, you are not obliged to believe to it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

You are very naiive to think this has anything to do with "your" gibus suggestion, i did not even know there was one.

But as i said, I see no possible way that your point of views are even remotely connected to mine. As I have owned this hat before, i am obliged to say (despite you being more experienced in bp.tf) i have a better knowledge of its value.

Last note, on that dupped secret tc. I would like to see the what the "duped hat thread" is.

btw No hard feelings or anything, not sure why u take this so seriously. Its not like you own the antlers or gibus.

Better knowledge of the value... You mean like you did with the PE Bomber?

Personal experience with a hat means nothing.

I'm waiting on my counter-proof. The Gibus sale, as it stands, is now counter-proof to this suggestion.

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/6817-bpbs-mini-suggestion-thread-for-gifted-duped-hats/ There's the duped hat thread.

You have still shown me zero proof that the gibus isn't worth 43, as my mini-suggestion shows.

Can you read.

I just said the Gibus was 39, after all the calculations in my post.

You are way too stubborn to persuade. If you think I am so wrong, make a suggestion for yourself.

If anything it would be you that has given me 0 proof of 43 buds.

Insulting my older suggestions would prove nothing, but your childish behavior, I honestly at this point dont even want to persuade you. I did this suggestion in hopes to help bp.tf, to help give a price for antlers.

I dont mind constructive criticism in fact i dont even mind normal criticism. However you are just contradicting literally everything i am saying about the gibus, you are a hypocrite to say i am not reading what ur saying. To you who cares if the gibus is 39 or 42, what difference will it make to you... Its not even the AF Gibus suggestion.

If you have "better knowledge of value" go do it urself.

Bp.tf prices are not carved in stone, prices fluctuate alot. Bp.tf prices are just estimates of the hat, the true value of the hat is always changing and i am just trying my best to make a value for it.

Back on my suggestion. Why I have decided to put the price.

- 2 sales at 33

- 2 sales at 40-42

- 1 sale of 35~40, depends on the price of the Af Gibus.

Anyway as i said, let the ADMINS decide. not you.( dont take this personally. ) They will have no bias and much more knowledge. Let them decide. If you actually care that much, as i have SAID BEFORE (but u never read), go do it ur self.

You said that's a possible high-end based on your own completely meaningless calculations based on other effects of hats and entirely ignoring almost everything I said.

I'm waiting on proof.

You will have a long wait. When you yourself cant even deliver "acceptable" proof.

How is it 43.

You are basing all ur opinion on 1 single Sale, with values that fluctuate hugely.

Two sales and a B/O are acceptable as an estimation.

'Nothing' is not acceptable proof of anything.

Read above.

There is a reason why I closed this......

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/5449ba83b88d88bb508b4fc5

I quote Polar:

So the duped harvest TC was 38 AFTER overpay from my mini. Which would put that sale closer to 33. That gives you two sales at 33 and two at ~40-42. Not sure how you can tell which is the outlier based on that.

What Polar is clearly implying, is that one of these two values is an outlier.

The Gibus sale shows us which end. The low end.

Why dont you ask polar.

Instead of "implying" it.

I was sure he meant.

Either 2 ranges could be valid.

or if i imply it,

make a range where both are in it. *note that the af gibus fits perfectly in the range, but you want it to be higher.

Polar's views are pretty adequately expressed on the other suggestion. We both agreed 38-42 / 38-44 was ideal.

Bearing in mind you've used my proof from that suggestion in mini's up there, I thought you'd be aware of this.

Yes i did, and for that i want to thank you for that.

I will ask polar, or u ask polar to see if this suggestion meets his expectations.

Well, the Secret TC sale at 55 was a very long time ago. The guy who got the AF gibus in the trade shown here sold it for ~26 in almost all pure. Then the buyer tried dumping it for 35 - http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/23435570 (willing to take less in pure).

Even 41 might be generous on the gibus.

These high tiers are difficult to assess because overpay is realistically a lot more than 10%. On low tier hats, that doesn't really matter, but at this tier of hat, when overpay is realistically closer to 30%, you start getting differences on the order of 10-20 buds between the pure price on an item and the unusual price. So I always look for which sales are the most solid - the closest to pure sales we have.

- That harvest TC actually has a sale at 38 in pure. Rare for a hat of this tier. That sale really is about ~34 in pure (since ~4 was added).

- The australiums, burning belt, and lucha all have pure sales documented. That is a solid pure value at 34.

Other sales:

- Cannonball + 13 pure? Only cannonball on the market is being sold at 28 pure. It's value is based on the scorching specs which didn't have the most convincing range / suggestion. But still, probably ~40?

- Only pure sale we have on the gibus is actually 26 pure. Value on that is iffy at best.

- And then there is the mess of sale for the brainiac, tyrants, etc.

We can say with confidence this hat can get 33 in pure. High end is coming from some very uncertain unusual sales. Going with the wide range... and the votes.