Suggestion: Orbiting Fire Titanium Tyrolean at 14 keys

Price Suggestion

~19 keys

o.fire

229 votes up

29 votes down

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This suggestion was accepted Mon, 29 Jun 15 22:12:31 +0000 by A Delicious Cashew™.

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Orbiting Fire Titanium Tyrolean

Year outdated

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Sale #1

Sold for Circling Peace Sign L'Inspecteur

http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198101375366?time=1431932400

http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198101375366?time=1432018800

15*0.9 = 13.5

Sale total: 14 keys

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Mini for L' Inspecteur

Sold for 15 keys

http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198073025812?time=1432537200

http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198073025812?time=1432623600

Mini total: 15 keys

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Let it banana

The problem is - no overpay on mini for PURE.

Defending tyroleans value, 1 key at the phrase

Yeah the mini is 15 flat, but the sale includes only the hat, not the pure.

Seems you didn't understand what i'm trying to say. I'll just quote thingy from rules

If you make suggestions long enough, you come across the situation where you have to make a mini for an outdated hat. Do you apply overpay in the mini and then again on the main suggestion? Doing so stacks overpay twice, so if all hats were traded 1:1, your final evaluation comes out to 81% of the original hat's value. What if you have to do a mini for the mini - now you get overpay stacked 3 times. And if all hats were traded 1:1, your final evaluation comes to 72% of the original value. This isn't right, and it doesn't capture the meaning of overpay. GENERALLY (though not always), it is best to apply overpay ONCE. When you apply it once, you are calculating the pure value of an item. Applying overpay again would be the equivalent of applying overpay on pure.

tl;dr - by applying overpay on pure mini, you apply overpay basically on pure, which you can't do.

Yes, but if your mini is in pure, you wont need to apply overpay in the actual sale, since you can get the equivalent of 15 pure for it

Huh? Yes you will. All hats prices are based on what their pure value should be, so by this logic no-one would ever need to mini anything.

Inspecteur sells for 15 pure = it's worth 15.

Tyrolean sold for a hat worth 15, so you apply overpay on the sale.

If the current price of the linspectuer was in-date and the suggestion for it had been based on pure sales, you'd still apply overpay. A mini is no different.

Then mods did something wrong by accepting suggestions where i didn't apply overpay on pure minis.

Huh? I'm not saying to apply overpay on the mini...

It doesn't make a huge amount of difference either way, so I guess mods just aren't quibbling. I have always done at it's done above in this suggestion.

I never do, and it has never been a problem. Ive even used in-date prices based on full pure sales and refrained from applying overpay based on that fact.

You apply overpay either in your mini or in the suggestion's sale. If your mini wont require overpay, the 15 is 'after' overpay, meaning overpay is not needed in the sale again.

You don't apply overpay in mini and sale because it means overpay stacks. If your mini doesn't need overpay then you still apply it in the sale, same as you would if the hat's price was in date. The 15 isn't after overpay, it's just the price of the l'inspecteur. I've always done it that way. You probably haven't had issues just because most of the time it makes very little difference to the price outcome, but logically speaking I believe applying overpay is correct.

Ive done chain suggestions valued ~200 keys using this. at the end of the chain it would have made ~70 keys difference, so I dont think that was the drive.

If youre applying overpay on a hat that sells for 15 pure, youre totally beating the purpose of applying overpay, since the reason you apply overpay is to bring the sales return closer to its value in pure. If I sell a hat for another hat, and then sell that hat for 15 keys pure, it means I indirectly got 15 keys for it, not 13,5.

I've done high value suggestions too using the method above. I have never left out overpay in a hat-for-hat sale, regardless of whether the hat mini'ed sold for pure or items. Perhaps mods need to clarify then, if they're accepting both.

that isn't correct, you should apply overpay on the hat that sells for 15 keys pure because the guy with the inspecteur is expected to pay more in unusuals than the titanium is worth in pure

Phew I'm not crazy

I disagree and Im fairly sure its not incorrect. If the hat equals 15 pure via mini, youre indirectly paying 15 pure. As stated before, applying overpay on a hat that sells for 15 pure beats the purpose of applying overpay. I guess in this situation its neglectible anyway.

Clarification by a mod would be helpful

This logic assumes that all backpack.tf prices are incorrect and we price them above what they're actually worth. People require a higher price in item offers than they do in pure, that's why overpay exists. A person who would accept a hat worth 15 keys is assumed to value their hat in pure at 15 * 0.9, not 15. That's what overpay is.

This logic assumes that all backpack.tf prices are incorrect and we price them above what they're actually worth.

I have no idea why it would mean that.

Other than that:

With updated hats, I can understand this [even though I still dont fully agree]. But a peace sign inspecteur is outdated at 20. If it can sell for 15 pure, it means your mini assumes a hat worth 20 would be equal to 15 keys pure. Since we're looking to price hats at their value in pure, overpay on this makes no sense regarding the concept.

I have no idea why it would mean that.

Because why else would you apply overpay? If a 1:1 hat trade means that the seller values the hat at the exact price of the hat he's trading for, but we apply overpay to it routinely, that means we're saying hats are actually worth * 0.9 less than backpack.tf price. If 1:1 means what you're saying it means, then we should never apply overpay.

The inspecteur being worth 15 pure doesn't mean the hat it's offered on is worth 15 pure. People don't value 1:1 trades 1:1, they take a hat worth a little more than what theirs is worth, which is why we apply overpay.

This is pretty flawed, as you now say that all traders value all unusuals at .9 their value, which is not the case. applying 0.9 overpay is to give a more realistic value.

As said before, applying overpay is to get a more realistic view of a hats value in pure. A hat outdated at 20 that can pull off 15 pure means that according to the mini, this hat equals 15 pure. What you're saying now, means that you support overpay stacking (since if your mini would be 15 in hats, its current value is techncally lower than 15 pure). You're countering yourself with that, since you agreed on applying overpay only once earlier.

Discussing this further won't help anyone, since we clearly have different opinions. Again, as I said before, clarification from mods would be desirable.

Mods can clarify, indeed.

minis do not follow different rules from regular suggestions, if a hat gets priced at 15 keys and then you use that hat in your suggestion, your logic still follows but you have to apply overpay

That's why i prefer to do normal suggestions over minis, unless there's no sales but this... other sales can show, is it 15 for sure or a bit lower\more.

Sold for a Purple Confetti Sober Stuntman(12 Keys with Overpay) and 3 Keys(15 Keys total)

http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198135966781?time=1432071869 -> http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198135966781?time=1432105200

Perhaps a range might be needed, or 15 flat if mods say that the sale is in fact 15 Keys