Suggestion: Disco Beat Down Electric Escorter at 13–14 keys

Price Suggestion

~10 keys

dbd

133 votes up

21 votes down

Related Suggestions

This suggestion was closed Sun, 05 Jul 15 10:17:26 +0000 by the submitter.

Comments can no longer be left on this suggestion.

Comments

counter,sorry that i have to do it but you don't want to resuggest.

thanks to hilbert-waring theorem for the proof.....

Sale #1:

Sold for a Kill-a-Watt Stately Steel Toe (15 Keys)

Result: 15 Keys * 0.9 = 13.5 Keys = 14 keys

Backpack of buyer before: http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198071995112?time=1435302000

Backpack of buyer after: http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198071995112?time=1435388400

Sale #2:

Sold for 13 Keys pure

Backpack of seller before: http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198053172418?time=1430031600

Backpack of seller after: http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198053172418?time=1430377200

I made the original suggestion, from which this trader took all of his sales and evidence, pretty much word-for-word.

Allow me to respond to the matter. I chose to round down the Unusual sale to 13 Keys for a couple of, I believe, very good reasons:

a) There was a pure sale for 13 Keys; pure sales always have more influence in determining a representative price.

b) Price of the Steel Toe is comparatively high, according to similarly-tiered particle effects -- Consider Vivid Steel Toe, which is only 14 Keys -- and

c) For reasons a) and b), the high-end in this counter is not as strong and likely unnecessary.

d) You can round from 13.5 Keys to 13, which is just as valid as rounding from 13.5 to 14 Keys.

This counter is not needed; high-end is weak.

A more truly representative price for the Escorter would be at 13 Keys flat.

that's hypocritical.

a) There was a pure sale for 13 Keys; pure sales always have more influence in determining a representative price. - pure sale for 12 went in 2 days,you don't want to outlie 11 (in the beanie sugg)

b) Price of the Steel Toe is comparatively high, according to similarly-tiered particle effects -- vivid is 14,twatt is 13. dbd is 15. everything is around that,bp.tf doesn't work with opinions sadly. the prices that are there are taken as right anyways.

c) isn't really an argument

d) you can't. i provided you with the rules. and with the exact "google" definition of them. you round to 14

anyways,yes. pure sales have more influence,but this here is almost negligible. and given we only have 2 sales,using everything we can is alright .

it would be another story if the toe was 12~ after overpay and 13 sold fast.

also an argument of my own:

x) the escorter sale is only 1 week old - the pure sale lower than 2 months

y) if you feel i stole this from you,i couldn't care less for suggestion rep. you are free to suggest at 13-14,but you don't want to.

I never claimed that you stole the suggestion, simply that you obtained all your evidence through my research and that I am therefore knowledgeable about the sales that occurred.

Furthermore:

a) Pure sale did go for 12 Keys for the Beanie. That is correct and perhaps 11 - 13 Keys or even 12 - 13 Keys may have been acceptable. However, that is not relevant to this particular price suggestion in and of itself.

b) Opinions are of course subjective, but it is almost universally agreed upon that Vivid Plasma is higher than Kill-a-Watt and, in the suggestion for the Toe itself, the author explicitly noted that this seemed relatively high. You must also, on a more common-sense level, account for the fact that suggestions are not representative of all sales, but simply enough to determine a price at which the Unusual has sold for. It would be believable that this Unusual may have sold for less in the past and will likely not sell for as much now.

c) This was a summary.

d) According to Wikipedia, "One may also use round half down (or round half towards negative infinity) as opposed to the more common round half up." Again, you can round from 13.5 Keys to 13, which is just as valid as rounding from 13.5 to 14 Keys.

>"Here this is almost negligible"

Then why resuggest in the first place? A 0.5 difference in the average, further supporting my argument that this counter is both tasteless and unnecessary.

x) Both sales are equally valid, within suggestion timelines. The pure sale still naturally has more influence.

y) There was and still is absolutely no reason for me to counter. This counter was simply unneeded. Frankly, the only reason you gave in countering me was because you disagreed with my rounding down as opposed to rounding up. It is valid either way, regardless of perhaps some computer-science convention that originates not out of definition, but ubiquity.

again contradictions kek

"but it is almost universally agreed Vivid Plasma is higher than Kill-a-Watt" > "One may also use round half down (or round half towards negative infinity) as opposed to the more common round half up."

so now you go with the common opinion,where as somewhere else you go against it...

anyways,you clearly cherrypick your arguments depending on the situation,so this is pointless. i would gladly try to reason with you,but obviously you aren't accepting constructive criticism. infact,i countered so i would avoid that.

and anyways http://prntscr.com/7obum6 if you missed it.

In one case, with the discussion of the particle effects, I was simply describing the general opinion on the tiering of particle effects. In the other case, I was arguing that the method of rounding down is also valid. You cannot compare apples to oranges. Both of those points are sound and do not result in any kind or degree of self-contradiction.

I am accepting constructive criticism, as I often do. In this case, there is virtually no constructive criticism. You said that you would counter my suggestion only because I rounded down instead of rounding up. That was it; proof is readily available. I was explaining how rounding down was valid but, since you disagreed with me on how to round 13.5, you decided to make a counter from my research.

as i said http://backpack.tf/vote/id/5577608aba8d882a038b4593

given that 15 was a pure sale,there was actually no need for me to take overpay on the toe.

and the machina,given that the mini was via scm was close to pure too.

so i could have gone for 13-15,but i didn't ,because yes - i feel like i should take overpay. and when i take overpay,i round up,which is common sense. you can dig me up a suggestion where someone rounded down if you want.

The fact that the Toe sold for 14 Keys + 1 Key in items (mixed, but mostly pure) changes little to nothing on the matter of the Electrc Escorter. Certainly, the Toe was priced at 15 Keys, which the sales for the Toe are representative of. However, in applying overpay for the Electric Escorter, one would have the same 13.5 result. You are simply declaring your agreement with the bp.tf price for the Toe, which I agree with also.

Then, the question is whether to round down or round up, both of which are mathematically valid. In the particular context of this specific trade, with all being said, I have very reasonably argued that it makes more sense to round down than round up.

There are no laws of nature in making a suggestion. Understanding the individual variance of sales, there is very likely an instance in which a sale has been rounded down, instead of up, sometimes by even, in principle, ~50 Keys for higher-tier Unusuals. That does not weaken my argument.

well yea,because it looks nicer kek.

if there's a sale that's 1005 keys,people will round to 1000

that doesn't hold water here,because

a) ranges are better to show the value of a hat

b) 13 and 13-14 look equally bad,but 13-14 is better due to point a)

In this case, the range can be eliminated by rounding down, in compliance with the pure sale at 13 Keys. There are many Unusuals which are priced without a range. 13 Keys is also arguably more aesthetically appealing since we have a solid number, instead of a smeared distribution of numbers.

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/5577608aba8d882a038b4593

the toe suggestion is also fresh,and with 2 sales at 15 (one being pure) is very solid

which also in turn goes with your point a) and contradicts b)

http://prntscr.com/7oc0uh

and don't bold nonsense. and given the pure sales on the toe it's more reasonable to round up kek.

In the particular context of this specific trade, with all being said, I have very reasonably argued that it makes more sense to round down than round up. In consideration of the more relevant pure sale for the Electric Escorter, it would absolutely be more reasonable to round down. We must make a visible effort to be consistent with pure sales for the Unusual being priced.

that makes no sense. you are valuing the toe in this sale at 13,because the escorter sold for 13

How does that make no sense? You can round either way. Rounding down makes sense because it is more consistent with the pure sale. 13 Keys is perfectly valid, with rounding being considered. 13 Keys is also arguably more aesthetically appealing since we have a solid number, instead of a smeared distribution of numbers.

do you know why you take overpay ?

"Overpaying simply means that you pay more than the item's value in items, instead of currency such as Keys and Metal"

Clearly, in this case, the Electric Escorter sold for an item, as opposed to a currency, regardless of what the item may have sold for in the past. If you take all items to be equivalent to their pure values on bp.tf because of a single pure sale, overpay would be a non-existent concept. You say that SCM sales are almost pure, but then all items which can be listed and sold on the market have no overpay applied, which is obviously non-sense. Simply because the payment consisted of items is reason enough to apply overpay, especially if there was not necessarily any prior knowledge of the history of sales for the Unusuals in question.

calm down,no need to elaborate anything. i was just asking you.

anyways that's true,however at bp.tf 0.9* overpay is taken to get the pure value of a hat.

you see,prices at bp.tf are made to represent pure prices.

anyways,you reasoning to round 13.5 to 13 is because the escorter sold for 13 pure?

please just do yes/no. further explaining of your reasoning is pointless as you already did that.

I have firmly answered that question in my earlier responses. It is more subtle and complex than that, but that was my primary argument. I am indeed "reasoning to round 13.5 to 13 because the Escorter sold for 13 pure".

As you said yourself, "you see, prices at bp.tf are made to represent pure prices." That was exactly my point, but perhaps we are still seeing things differently.

great,progress.

there is this one issue tho. you see,by applying *0.9 overpay,you are trying to get the pure value of the toe. do you understand that ?

By applying * 0.9 overpay, we are indeed trying to get the pure value of the Toe. In doing so, we obtain a result of 13.5 in terms of item overpay, which must be rounded, in this case either down to 13 (which I favor) or up to 14 (as you favor). We did not disagree on that. The crux of the matter was how to round and I have clearly argued that rounding down is more reasonable.

yes,that's awesome.

so now we have a value of 13.5 on the toe.

and you said that we should favor to round to the pure sale

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/5577608aba8d882a038b4593

so we round to 14,because there is a pure sale on the toe. that's 15

Now, we have a value of 13.5 on the toe. In the context of this particular trade, it would make more sense to round down to 13 because:

The Electric Escorter sold for 13 Keys pure; this is the most representative sale in the entire proof.

Backpack of seller before: http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198053172418?time=1430031600

Backpack of seller after: http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198053172418?time=1430377200

In applying item overpay, the history of past sales should be less important than the pure sales in the suggestion itself. Why? If you take all items to be equivalent to their pure values on bp.tf because of a single pure sale, overpay would be a non-existent concept. You say that SCM sales are almost pure, but then all items which can be listed and sold on the market have no overpay applied, which is obviously non-sense.

no no no no

going off your logic,if there were 2 pure sale on the escorter,13 and 13.5 you would go for 13 > and as much laughable as that is,lets say i agree

but we are valuing the toe here,you agreed to that. so due to the pure sale on the toe,you should round to 14

I never claimed that logic you are trying to exemplify. perhaps there was a misunderstanding.

We were valuing the toe in the context of this particular trade for the Electric Escorter, in which case:

a) Overpay would still be applied because of aforementioned reasons and

b) We would still obtain the result of 13.5 Keys, which we must round.

Otherwise, we would simply be repricing the Steel Toe and there is no need for that, as there is no need for this counter.

Rounding makes a reasonably small difference and I have tirelessly argued that rounding down is the more reasonable option, from first principles.

Let us agree to end this discussion and allow the moderators to have their say in the matter.

repricing it ? how ?

you can't use the same trade to price 2 hats.

it's valued 14 here,the end.

anyways,you yourself said that rounding up is more common,and with your reasoning i provided that it should be rounded to 14 here hehe.

there is one "flaw",that i know about. which wasn't mentioned here(so there actually may be a chance for you to get it priced at 13),but i chose to go with it,since i have this habit of trying to see "what makes people tick",and you were certainly an interesting subject.

so yah i agree. lets close it here.

I owned the toe, the guy didnt want overpay, he just wanted a new hat.

Despite the Toe being in-date, the price could still be too high as suggested in the opening comments of that suggestion. The only seller on the market wants 12.

i know http://prntscr.com/7p08di

Pfft, I wasn't reading that flame war, apologies if I repeated anything.

Lemme see if I can find any more toe sales.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25998736 Sold for 12? 12 seems better in general.

http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/25787819 Sold for I think Planets Prancers + stuff, B/O of 14

i'd wait for 12 to mature before closing this,but i'll do so now due to that sale