This suggestion was marked as bad price range and closed
by A Delicious Cashew™.
The price range was either too broad or did not accurately reflect how the item was traded.
Therefore, this suggestion has been closed.
Comments can no longer be left on this suggestion.
Comments
Rules say "Almost any trading body can be used to back your suggestion up" so that should include auctions. With that out of the way, let us begin. (Note I am only using bids that won, even though there still may be time remaining in the screenshots.)
By the way, the submission to raise the price only had 1 sold as proof 🤔🤔🤔.
Scrap.tf automatically calculates the price of each item (based on backpack.tf prices), and people are just abusing PDAs with a custom description to easily win auctions.
You don’t have to accept a bid; you can only reject it, so I’d say that these don’t count. Auctions aren’t regular trades. Sometimes, someone bids at the last second, and you can’t do anything about it since you’ve already given your item to Scrap.tf.
Nevertheless, there is no reason this should be worth 2 ref, since description tags currently selling for only 0.88 ref. This should be worth less than that.
Scrap.tf auctions don't let the auctioneer see their alternative bids, people usually don't sit on their auction for 4 hours to reject any bad bids, and as you said, OFTEN someone bids at the last second and you can't do anything. I don't see why auctions shouldn't count because someone bidding 56 PDAs for 2 keys shows that they value the PDAs at, at most, 1.22-1.33.
No one bought any PDAs for 1.22 ref each. That’s just what Scrap.tf thinks they’re worth based on the backpack.tf price. If the item factor is 50%, they would be worth 1 ref in Scrap.tf auctions.
If the price is changed to 1.22 ref on backpack.tf and the item factor of an auction is, say, 85%, Scrap.tf would value them at 1 ref.
Yeah, ideally they would be lowered to .88-1.33 but because scrap.tf doesn't let you view archived auctions unless you bid on them, I couldn't find enough proof to justify that
I’m just saying: I don’t think Scrap.tf auctions count as proof. Like I said, you don’t have to accept bids; you can only reject them. I bet that most people who got PDAs in an auction didn’t even want them.
I don’t think they count as sales, to be honest.
They count as the seller (bidder) valuing them as whatever low price they were sold for, even if the buyer (auctioneer) doesn't necessarily.
The bidder has no choice, nor has the auctioneer. The only reason these PDAs were sold is that Scrap.tf thinks they’re worth much more than they should be.
Basically, you can turn a 0.88-ref item (the Description Tag) into 2 ref (or slightly less, depending on the item factor percentage) for free, as the PDA is a stock weapon (if you can call it a weapon).
What do you mean "the bidder has no choice"? The bidder is choosing to sell their PDAs for 1.22 ref even though the auctioneer has little choice to accept or deny.
The bidder doesn’t choose what the item is worth. Again, they’re just exploiting the auction system.
What I'm saying is, if the community (and therefore the bidder) actually thought this item was worth 2 ref, then the bidder wouldn't sell it for 1.22 ref.
The bidder doesn’t sell it for 1.22 ref. Again, it’s an exploit.
One problem that a few people have run into with the auction thing is that they set an autobuy that can easily be achieved by PDA spam. Thus, they can't even reject the bid if they wanted to.
I don't understand why Jesse refuses to blacklist the item, at least until the price goes back down. I mean, this is a stock item that everybody has in the game to begin with, why would it be worth 2 ref?
More importantly, how the hell did the suggestion for this being 2 ref go through?! One proof, no comments, AND IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE THAN THE TOOL YOU USE TO CREATE IT!
Whatever. This just makes me more glad to not bother with auctions.
This suggestion is heavily flawed. First of all, most if not all of those auctions you mentioned have item factors you completely ignored in your calculations. If I were to bid a tour of duty ticket (16 ref) on a 75% IF auction to buy a 12 ref item, does that mean we lower the ticket's value? No, because auctions are not a reliable method of pricing. People buy and sell for wildly different amounts for the same items on scrap.tf.
This leads into my second point, where you happen to have conveniently cherrypicked only the seller auctions that were effectively quickbought. I do recall seeing single PDAs sold in auctions getting bids such as:
2 PDAs for 1
Officer's Ushanka
3 ref
Of course though, I can't actually link proof because as you mentioned here, you can't easily gather proof of such an ocurrence without having bid or been replied to on that auction. Using auctions as proof is always going to be wildly off the mark.
And finally, since you want to use people's bids as proof of price, here's some of my personal evidence to the contrary:
If your proof is valid, then the proof I posted is equally valid.
In response to your first point: If someone bids a 4 key item on an auction for 3 keys, then that could be used as evidence that the item is overpriced. Likewise, if someone bids 56 2 ref items on an auction for 3 ref, then that could be used as evidence that the item is overpriced.
About your second point: these examples were not cherrypicked; they were every single example of a PDA sale I had access to.
About your proof, that just shows that people are willing to sell PDAs for higher than they're valued. But that's a given. If you check any the classified listings of almost any item, people will always sell their items at more than they're worth. But what indicates that PDAs are overvalued is that people are willing to sell them for 1.22, when they're valued at 2 ref.
Not to personally attack you, but your comments on numerous scrap.tf auctions show that you acknowledge that you know PDAs are overpriced, yet you still protest this suggestion to greedily profit.
The meme is up anyway. My tax loophole has been closed, so I have no personal stake in this anymore.
It's funny considering how you're one of the most obvious perpetrators exploiting this loophole to abuse the scrap.tf auction system.
That proof is not legitimate as you are ignoring item factoring in almost all of the examples you give.
In addition auctions often start out bid's before the item's actual value.
The thing about the cases where item factor is below 100% is that items are not being considered as their full value by the system. Like how when trading an unusual for another unusual the buyer's item is considered at below its actual value for the purposes of that trade.
Most traders take item offers at lower than their actual value in pure.
Suppose I trade my item for the other person's item. Their item is worth 10 keys, but this does not mean my item is worth 10 keys. My item could be worth 13 keys, but the other guy may prefer pure and want item overpay.
In scrap.tf auctions this item overpay thing is automatically enforced with item factors.
What does that have do do with anything? People are still paying 56 PDAs for 2 keys.
They are doing that when item factor is below 100%, that means the item counts as a lower value for the purpose of that auction. Using cases where an item is being used in overpay is not a good indication of the item's actual price.
But it is though, because people are only willing to pay massive overpay with PDAs because they value them as less than 2 ref.
No. It's because they got them for cheaper than 2 refined, so they are making profit even if they trade it for stuff below it's actual value.
scrap finally blacklisted the pda from being bid. please make an actually good suggestion thanks
Even if it's been blacklisted, you just have to look at the listings for two seconds to see no one actually bothers with the 2 ref price.
it's almost as if neither 2 ref nor 1.22 is a proper price for it and a kneejerk response with no proof shouldn't be accepted as a price
it's almost as if neither 2 ref nor 1.22 are a proper price but the best course of action is to lower it to 1.22 because it is much closer to 1.22 than 2, as shown by the abundance of proof you are ignoring
the objective of price suggestions are to give a correct price, not a roughly accurate price.
So, looking at this evidence, what would you call a correct price?
1 seems like a pretty good benchmark, seeing as a fair amount of the pdas that blaze thermal has posted at 1 have since sold ( http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/29533827 has even sold all three of their pdas)
that's not how suggestions work :v
might just spend an afternoon buying 500 description tags and tanking the price just for shits and giggles so this shit won't affect any other people
pdas have already been blacklisted
There are sellers at .88 and 1 ref right now. This will need a larger drop
Rules say "Almost any trading body can be used to back your suggestion up" so that should include auctions. With that out of the way, let us begin. (Note I am only using bids that won, even though there still may be time remaining in the screenshots.)
SOLD:
https://i.imgur.com/tuREr2z.png 56 PDAs for 2 keys = 1.22-1.33 per item
https://scrap.tf/auctions/CT7UHE ( https://i.imgur.com/NIGklq8.png ) = 1.55-1.77 per item
https://scrap.tf/auctions/WOS5BN ( https://i.imgur.com/FelhtpF.png ) = 10 PDAs @ 0.88 each
https://scrap.tf/auctions/TVEGZC = 18 PDAs @ 1.55 each
https://i.imgur.com/emkex4i.png 4 PDAs for 5.16 of items = 1.22-1.33
https://scrap.tf/auctions/PURO0L 11 PDAs for 14 of items = 1.22-1.33
https://scrap.tf/auctions/8Q3Z5R 12 PDAs for spec ks skin that isn't on the market but the unskinned version is $1.54 = 1.11-1.33
BOUGHT:
https://i.imgur.com/iUoajYb.png 3 for 2.33 = 0.77 each
https://i.imgur.com/ojIBiJC.png 2 for 2.11 = 1.05 each
By the way, the submission to raise the price only had 1 sold as proof 🤔🤔🤔.
Scrap.tf automatically calculates the price of each item (based on backpack.tf prices), and people are just abusing PDAs with a custom description to easily win auctions.
You don’t have to accept a bid; you can only reject it, so I’d say that these don’t count. Auctions aren’t regular trades. Sometimes, someone bids at the last second, and you can’t do anything about it since you’ve already given your item to Scrap.tf.
Nevertheless, there is no reason this should be worth 2 ref, since description tags currently selling for only 0.88 ref. This should be worth less than that.
Scrap.tf auctions don't let the auctioneer see their alternative bids, people usually don't sit on their auction for 4 hours to reject any bad bids, and as you said, OFTEN someone bids at the last second and you can't do anything. I don't see why auctions shouldn't count because someone bidding 56 PDAs for 2 keys shows that they value the PDAs at, at most, 1.22-1.33.
No one bought any PDAs for 1.22 ref each. That’s just what Scrap.tf thinks they’re worth based on the backpack.tf price. If the item factor is 50%, they would be worth 1 ref in Scrap.tf auctions.
If the price is changed to 1.22 ref on backpack.tf and the item factor of an auction is, say, 85%, Scrap.tf would value them at 1 ref.
Yeah, ideally they would be lowered to .88-1.33 but because scrap.tf doesn't let you view archived auctions unless you bid on them, I couldn't find enough proof to justify that
I’m just saying: I don’t think Scrap.tf auctions count as proof. Like I said, you don’t have to accept bids; you can only reject them. I bet that most people who got PDAs in an auction didn’t even want them.
I don’t think they count as sales, to be honest.
They count as the seller (bidder) valuing them as whatever low price they were sold for, even if the buyer (auctioneer) doesn't necessarily.
The bidder has no choice, nor has the auctioneer. The only reason these PDAs were sold is that Scrap.tf thinks they’re worth much more than they should be.
Basically, you can turn a 0.88-ref item (the Description Tag) into 2 ref (or slightly less, depending on the item factor percentage) for free, as the PDA is a stock weapon (if you can call it a weapon).
What do you mean "the bidder has no choice"? The bidder is choosing to sell their PDAs for 1.22 ref even though the auctioneer has little choice to accept or deny.
The bidder doesn’t choose what the item is worth. Again, they’re just exploiting the auction system.
What I'm saying is, if the community (and therefore the bidder) actually thought this item was worth 2 ref, then the bidder wouldn't sell it for 1.22 ref.
The bidder doesn’t sell it for 1.22 ref. Again, it’s an exploit.
One problem that a few people have run into with the auction thing is that they set an autobuy that can easily be achieved by PDA spam. Thus, they can't even reject the bid if they wanted to.
I don't understand why Jesse refuses to blacklist the item, at least until the price goes back down. I mean, this is a stock item that everybody has in the game to begin with, why would it be worth 2 ref?
More importantly, how the hell did the suggestion for this being 2 ref go through?! One proof, no comments, AND IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE THAN THE TOOL YOU USE TO CREATE IT!
Whatever. This just makes me more glad to not bother with auctions.
This suggestion is heavily flawed. First of all, most if not all of those auctions you mentioned have item factors you completely ignored in your calculations. If I were to bid a tour of duty ticket (16 ref) on a 75% IF auction to buy a 12 ref item, does that mean we lower the ticket's value? No, because auctions are not a reliable method of pricing. People buy and sell for wildly different amounts for the same items on scrap.tf.
This leads into my second point, where you happen to have conveniently cherrypicked only the seller auctions that were effectively quickbought. I do recall seeing single PDAs sold in auctions getting bids such as:
2 PDAs for 1
Officer's Ushanka
3 ref
Of course though, I can't actually link proof because as you mentioned here, you can't easily gather proof of such an ocurrence without having bid or been replied to on that auction. Using auctions as proof is always going to be wildly off the mark.
And finally, since you want to use people's bids as proof of price, here's some of my personal evidence to the contrary:
https://scrap.tf/auctions/V2N9NG - 6 PDAs for 12.44 ref item = 2.07 ref per PDA
https://scrap.tf/auctions/QIPQZI - 8 PDAs + 1 ref for ~15 ref in items = 1.75 ref per PDA
https://scrap.tf/auctions/4M20SM - 3 PDAs for ~6 ref in items = 2 ref per PDA
https://scrap.tf/auctions/HDDVYI - Effectively 3 PDAs for skin with buy order at $.71 and sales ~$.90 (http://steamcommunity.com/market/listings/440/Strange%20Reclaimed%20Reanimator%20Medi%20Gun%20%28Field-Tested%29) which is upwards of 20 cents per PDA (more than 2 ref)
If your proof is valid, then the proof I posted is equally valid.
In response to your first point: If someone bids a 4 key item on an auction for 3 keys, then that could be used as evidence that the item is overpriced. Likewise, if someone bids 56 2 ref items on an auction for 3 ref, then that could be used as evidence that the item is overpriced.
About your second point: these examples were not cherrypicked; they were every single example of a PDA sale I had access to.
About your proof, that just shows that people are willing to sell PDAs for higher than they're valued. But that's a given. If you check any the classified listings of almost any item, people will always sell their items at more than they're worth. But what indicates that PDAs are overvalued is that people are willing to sell them for 1.22, when they're valued at 2 ref.
Not to personally attack you, but your comments on numerous scrap.tf auctions show that you acknowledge that you know PDAs are overpriced, yet you still protest this suggestion to greedily profit.
The meme is up anyway. My tax loophole has been closed, so I have no personal stake in this anymore.
It's funny considering how you're one of the most obvious perpetrators exploiting this loophole to abuse the scrap.tf auction system.
https://scrap.tf/auctions/C0UDDT
That proof is not legitimate as you are ignoring item factoring in almost all of the examples you give.
In addition auctions often start out bid's before the item's actual value.
The thing about the cases where item factor is below 100% is that items are not being considered as their full value by the system. Like how when trading an unusual for another unusual the buyer's item is considered at below its actual value for the purposes of that trade.
Most traders take item offers at lower than their actual value in pure.
Suppose I trade my item for the other person's item. Their item is worth 10 keys, but this does not mean my item is worth 10 keys. My item could be worth 13 keys, but the other guy may prefer pure and want item overpay.
In scrap.tf auctions this item overpay thing is automatically enforced with item factors.
What does that have do do with anything? People are still paying 56 PDAs for 2 keys.
They are doing that when item factor is below 100%, that means the item counts as a lower value for the purpose of that auction. Using cases where an item is being used in overpay is not a good indication of the item's actual price.
But it is though, because people are only willing to pay massive overpay with PDAs because they value them as less than 2 ref.
No. It's because they got them for cheaper than 2 refined, so they are making profit even if they trade it for stuff below it's actual value.
Q.E.D., this item is overpriced.
They've been blacklisted, finally.
https://imgur.com/a/3HqHS
so many of these are in auction on scrap.tf that its a meme basically, the pda needs a drop
What you want them to be valued at is not the same as what they are valued at, nor should the former be taken as the later.
i like how you have a huge stash of pda's that i assume that you are using to bid, your apart of the problem
Nice PDAs.
Additional Proof #1:
BOUGHT
https://i.imgur.com/0DEPxT2.png = 1 for 1 ref
https://i.imgur.com/36YQf2H.png = 1 for 1 ref
Don't you think that if this item were really worth 2 ref, someone would pay more than 1 ref for one?
https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198125023131
https://backpack.tf/item/6589598691 - bought for 0.44
https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198178868599
https://backpack.tf/item/6589865380 - selling for 0.77
https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198042172816
https://backpack.tf/item/6592169970 - selling for 0.88
https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198125023131
https://backpack.tf/item/6589598691 - selling for 1 ref
https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198044811040
https://backpack.tf/item/6586894074 - selling for 1 ref
https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198196569053
https://backpack.tf/item/6587865324 - selling for 1 ref
https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198311858486
https://backpack.tf/item/6590246283 - selling for 1 ref
basically a whole page of sellers below the suggested price
https://gyazo.com/e9571d53acad25347297850cc5d3c9c2 also sale at .33 here
scrap finally blacklisted the pda from being bid. please make an actually good suggestion thanks
Even if it's been blacklisted, you just have to look at the listings for two seconds to see no one actually bothers with the 2 ref price.
it's almost as if neither 2 ref nor 1.22 is a proper price for it and a kneejerk response with no proof shouldn't be accepted as a price
it's almost as if neither 2 ref nor 1.22 are a proper price but the best course of action is to lower it to 1.22 because it is much closer to 1.22 than 2, as shown by the abundance of proof you are ignoring
the objective of price suggestions are to give a correct price, not a roughly accurate price.
So, looking at this evidence, what would you call a correct price?
1 seems like a pretty good benchmark, seeing as a fair amount of the pdas that blaze thermal has posted at 1 have since sold ( http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/29533827 has even sold all three of their pdas)
that's not how suggestions work :v
might just spend an afternoon buying 500 description tags and tanking the price just for shits and giggles so this shit won't affect any other people
pdas have already been blacklisted
There are sellers at .88 and 1 ref right now. This will need a larger drop